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  #51   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 04-02-2020, 03:06 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
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OK everyone...so, boats been running great all up until this pas Saturday...not much wind, so we went for a motor up to Laguna Beach...longest on motor since my initial problem last summer...it was a little choppy, confused seas and lots of power boat wakes, so we were getting tossed around a bit...

And then it happened again, engine stalled due to fuel supply issue. Got it to restart and then it ran for about 20 min or so, then stalled again and would not restart. Clearly fuel supply issue but since I still haven't installed a fuel pressure gauge... it could be the carb again, or a blockage somewhere in the fuel system.

Next day went down and she fired right back up and ran for hours no problem (in the slip, both in gear and in neutral). Removed fuel filter (plastic opaque, i know not ideal) and blew threw it and seemed like passage was clear.

- side note...I shut off the fuel valve to see how long the engine would run until dry...it was about 3 minutes and change to use up the fuel in the bowl of the carb as well as through all the lines -

I think I may have a dirty fuel tank, and when getting all tossed around while out on open water, the sediment got all stirred up and clogged us.

So, my plan now is to re-do my whole fuel system arrangement. I will place the Fuel/Water separator right after Fuel tank...then run that to the fuel pump, then get a proper polishing filter from Moyer to place between fuel pump and carb. I will also remove carb again to see if the float is bent again, but I don't think it is. I also want to try to clean out the tank as best I can without removing it yet...I plan to use my old (spare fuel pump, and rig up a filter system to circulate back to the tank and run this for a while, changing filters as needed with the hop of getting some of the sediment/debris out of the tank. I know this won't be a permanent fix, but easy enough to rig and run.

Couple questions regarding the carb...

1. is it possible for a float to get stuck in the closed position not allowing fuel to fill the bowl? All the research I have done is mostly floats sticking in the open position, flooding too much fuel.

2. What would have or could have cause the float to get bent in the first place (that is what had happened the first time I had my fuel supply issue).

3. I will have to re-do the whole fuel line set up, reposition the fuel pump as well...does it have to remain mounted in the vertical position (electric facet fuel pump).

4. Placement of the pressure gauge...best to be right before the carb after all filters, pumps, etc?
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Old 04-02-2020, 05:50 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Adam;
#1 Very unlikely a float gets stuck closed especially with the vibration of running.

#2 The float was bent before or during assembly. Perhaps the carb was dropped, just be careful.

#3 The pump should be mounted vertical.

#4 Yes the gage should be just before the carb. I suggest mounting a 1/8" ball valve on the gage. Good place to shut the fuel off!!

AND, since the engine was also well warmed up as well as the coil. Since it restarted after a possible 20 minute cooling time it could well be suspect. Did you check for spark?

The first thing to check after the engine just dies and your not out of fuel is the SPARK. If the engine died abruptly this is a likely scenario. If it sputtered, stumbled and died it could maybe be the fuel delivery.

Do you have a remote start switch mounted, may just add that to your shopping list.

Dave Neptune
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  #53   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 04-02-2020, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Adam;
#1 Very unlikely a float gets stuck closed especially with the vibration of running.

OK...so I will rule that out

#2 The float was bent before or during assembly. Perhaps the carb was dropped, just be careful.

Iinteresting as I have had the boat for 4 years before I had my initial problem, took off the carb and it was bent...I did not drop it and was very careful with it.


#3 The pump should be mounted vertical.

Thank you, I assumed so but asked anyways to free up option of re-mounting when I reconfigure everything.

#4 Yes the gage should be just before the carb. I suggest mounting a 1/8" ball valve on the gage. Good place to shut the fuel off!!

Perfect...will do as suggested.

AND, since the engine was also well warmed up as well as the coil. Since it restarted after a possible 20 minute cooling time it could well be suspect. Did you check for spark?

I did not check for spark...but will try to remember to do so when it does. I have checked the spark...maybe a month or so ago and it was ok. But just checked it from the coil...I will replace the spark plugs though which i have never done and when pulling one out it looked a little (very little) grey. Also...when it died, it was not 20 min before being able to fire it back up again...maybe 10 though....so now you are having me think that it could have been spark related, possibly needing to replace the spark plugs. (The coil has been replaced already). Spark plugs are cheap and I will still reconfigure the fuel system.

The first thing to check after the engine just dies and your not out of fuel is the SPARK. If the engine died abruptly this is a likely scenario. If it sputtered, stumbled and died it could maybe be the fuel delivery.

It sort of died abruptly.. and it only very slightly stumbled, so again leading me back to your suggestion of Spark...(which I will def remember to keep in mind for future). With that said, after we did get it fired up again (after about 10 min) and it ran for another 25 min or so, I believe it stumbled a bit when it died that time.

Again, coil is only a month or 2 old...but spark plugs are old and I will replace. And with that said...it does take a little more time to fire her up the first time than she used to and I have recently replaced both batteries too. So again now leading me back to spark (thank you for suggestion).


Do you have a remote start switch mounted, may just add that to your shopping list.

I do not, but I will add to list..I have a 9 year old son however that can and has turned the key for me the last time I checked spark.

Dave Neptune
Thanks so much Dave...Now even though I will re-do my fuel line set up...you have me thinking it could be my spark plugs.
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  #54   IP: 138.207.175.104
Old 04-02-2020, 06:54 PM
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Where did you purchase the coil? Did you test its resistance?

Bill
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  #55   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 04-02-2020, 07:10 PM
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Where did you purchase the coil? Did you test its resistance?

Bill
I got it from a local Marine Supply Store and it was the only one they had...I have not checked for resistance...but I believe I just watched Don do the test on the Moyer Youtube...

But any insight on how to do it properly here as well would be helpful.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
Thanks Don...I already bought the rebuild kit from your website for the early model carbs...should be arriving on the 18th and I will get to cleaning this one and putting it back together. If I have problems, I will certainly look to buying a new one.
Back in post #9, you indicated that you purchased an "early model" rebuild kit. The picture of your carb, however, shows that it is a late model carb (because it has five screws rather than four). I made the same mistake when I rebuilt my late model carb for the first time (i.e., I purchased an early model carb rebuild kit from MMI). Not only are the jets totally different (as per Ken of MMI) but, just as important, is the fact that the gasket that goes between the two halves of the carb that comes with the early model rebuild kit is totally different than the gasket that comes with the late model rebuild kit. And the difference is that the early model gasket doesnt cover the fifth screw, which can lead to an air leak which, in turn, can cause stalling.

Thus, take a look at your receipt and see exactly which rebuild kit you ordered. If it says "early model", you know that it is the wrong kit. Then look at the gasket between the two halves and you can bet that it doesnt cover the fifth screw. And you know that groovy shiny adjustment knob that came with the early model rebuild kit, which the directions say to install at the aft bottom of the carb...it doesn't belong on your late model carb. Rather, your carb just has a bolt-type plug in that goes there with a very specific size O-ring. The jet that is within that plug, as well as all the other jets, are all different too in the late model.

Dont fret as I did about cross threading by placing early model jets etc. in a late model carb, the threads are the same in both rebuild kits.

Hope that helps. Keep plugging away. I just got my late model A4 running again today after a six month adventure which included an engine swap (due to a thrashed #2 journal caused by me not putting oil in the early model engine, which is now in my garage waiting to be rebuilt) and rebuilding the late model A4 on my boat now with almost all new parts and a whole lot of fails. And it was all thanks to the patience and mentoring within this community and especially ndutton. FYI, six months ago, all I knew about engines was how to change a spark plug and put oil and gas (but I even failed at putting oil as you can see). I didn't even know what a carb was, let alone having the confidence to take it out and rebuild it. I have yet to learn as I am having a fuel delivery issue, but I digress. Good luck and please keep us posted.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:23 PM
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All good info Ando except for one thing. The picture in post #9 of this thread is of an early model carburetor. Your experiences and advice are spot on otherwise though.
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  #58   IP: 107.131.11.88
Old 04-02-2020, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ando View Post
Back in post #9, you indicated that you purchased an "early model" rebuild kit. The picture of your carb, however, shows that it is a late model carb (because it has five screws rather than four). I made the same mistake when I rebuilt my late model carb for the first time (i.e., I purchased an early model carb rebuild kit from MMI). Not only are the jets totally different (as per Ken of MMI) but, just as important, is the fact that the gasket that goes between the two halves of the carb that comes with the early model rebuild kit is totally different than the gasket that comes with the late model rebuild kit. And the difference is that the early model gasket doesnt cover the fifth screw, which can lead to an air leak which, in turn, can cause stalling.

Thus, take a look at your receipt and see exactly which rebuild kit you ordered. If it says "early model", you know that it is the wrong kit. Then look at the gasket between the two halves and you can bet that it doesnt cover the fifth screw. And you know that groovy shiny adjustment knob that came with the early model rebuild kit, which the directions say to install at the aft bottom of the carb...it doesn't belong on your late model carb. Rather, your carb just has a bolt-type plug in that goes there with a very specific size O-ring. The jet that is within that plug, as well as all the other jets, are all different too in the late model.

Dont fret as I did about cross threading by placing early model jets etc. in a late model carb, the threads are the same in both rebuild kits.

Hope that helps. Keep plugging away. I just got my late model A4 running again today after a six month adventure which included an engine swap (due to a thrashed #2 journal caused by me not putting oil in the early model engine, which is now in my garage waiting to be rebuilt) and rebuilding the late model A4 on my boat now with almost all new parts and a whole lot of fails. And it was all thanks to the patience and mentoring within this community and especially ndutton. FYI, six months ago, all I knew about engines was how to change a spark plug and put oil and gas (but I even failed at putting oil as you can see). I didn't even know what a carb was, let alone having the confidence to take it out and rebuild it. I have yet to learn as I am having a fuel delivery issue, but I digress. Good luck and please keep us posted.
Hey Ando...thanks for the input...but I definietly got the right kit...you can see my carb on post# 7 in the thread...it is the early 4 bolt carb, so we are all good on the gaskets, etc. But, your thoughts on air leak is something else I should consider and will find a way to check.
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
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All good info Ando except for one thing. The picture in post #9 of this thread is of an early model carburetor. Your experiences and advice are spot on otherwise though.
Thank you, Neil. I looked at the pic again and realized: 1. having fifth screw in and of itself doesn't mean it is a late model carb; and 2. I see now how the configuration of the gasket area is in Afisch's early model. Still learning
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Old 04-02-2020, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
Hey Ando...thanks for the input...but I definietly got the right kit...you can see my carb on post# 7 in the thread...it is the early 4 bolt carb, so we are all good on the gaskets, etc. But, your thoughts on air leak is something else I should consider and will find a way to check.
Yes you did, my mistake. As for the air leak: the carb I originally had in it was causing an air leak. We found that out when we replaced it with one ndutton knew worked well and it fired up and ran without issue (once tuned a bit). Thankfully, I had an extra and rebuilt it and replaced ndutton's with ittoday and fired her up, again with no issues (and a bit of tuning). My apologies for the red herring
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ando View Post
Yes you did, my mistake. As for the air leak: the carb I originally had in it was causing an air leak. We found that out when we replaced it with one ndutton knew worked well and it fired up and ran without issue (once tuned a bit). Thankfully, I had an extra and rebuilt it and replaced ndutton's with ittoday and fired her up, again with no issues (and a bit of tuning). My apologies for the red herring
No worries... I am just stoked everyone on here is so ready to help!

I don't think I have an air leak, but I will find a way of checking.
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
I think I may have a dirty fuel tank, and when getting all tossed around while out on open water, the sediment got all stirred up and clogged us.
This is a real possibility. Goes like this:
Sediment in the tank gets stirred up by the boat's motion and is sucked up against the end the tanks fuel outlet tube and is held there by the suction of the fuel pump. The engine dies and the sediment drops off because there is no longer any suction from the fuel pump.
Have you tried running from an auxiliary tank?

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-03-2020, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
This is a real possibility. Goes like this:
Sediment in the tank gets stirred up by the boat's motion and is sucked up against the end the tanks fuel outlet tube and is held there by the suction of the fuel pump. The engine dies and the sediment drops off because there is no longer any suction from the fuel pump.
Have you tried running from an auxiliary tank?

ex TRUE GRIT
I had that issue, except it was pieces of the fill hose. I figured it out with a vacuum gauge on the INTAKE side of the filter.
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
This is a real possibility. Goes like this:
Sediment in the tank gets stirred up by the boat's motion and is sucked up against the end the tanks fuel outlet tube and is held there by the suction of the fuel pump. The engine dies and the sediment drops off because there is no longer any suction from the fuel pump.
Have you tried running from an auxiliary tank?

ex TRUE GRIT
The engine fired right back up the next day...I have used an auxiliary tank when I had a bigger issue earlier (float in carb was bent)...but now that the engine is running again, an auxiliary would only work for me if the problem happens again, and likely when out on open water getting tossed around.

If it is sediment...it all settled back when slitting in the slip overnight.
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Old 04-03-2020, 03:30 PM
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The engine fired right back up the next day..
Your fuel tank sediment theory may be correct but as yet it is not at all conclusive. Notice that the 13 step MMI Shutdown Checklist directs you to check the ignition function first, not just the spark plugs but the entire ignition system function.

To the quotation above, an overheated coil will cease to produce spark resulting in a shutdown but here is the perplexing part - - after it cools it will seem to heal itself and operate as before but for a shorter time before it quits again. That may have been the case with your recent shutdown and subsequent restart the following day. The sequence of events and time periods between DO NOT eliminate the coil as a possible cause, not yet. More testing is needed.
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Old 04-13-2020, 03:49 PM
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Thanks so much Dave...Now even though I will re-do my fuel line set up...you have me thinking it could be my spark plugs.
Just a quick thought...I haven't had any real time to spend on boat since last chiming in here...but ran down quickly over the weekend as it had rained a lot and I needed to make sure everything was ok...

Decided to fire up the engine for a few moments just for good measure. Keep in mind I have not checked the resistance of the coil yet...but it did take about 6-7 times of trying to turn then engine over before she fired up...Turn the key, starter tries to engage, but no spark...6 or 7 times later, I get spark and it fires up.

Now that I am becoming more familiar with everything (thanks to you guys)...this does lead me to believe that it is a spark issue after all...prob related to a shitty coil, and probably also related to old spark plugs.

Does this sound right??

I will do the resistance check and maybe even just put my old coil back on, and i will replace spark plugs. Just want to make sure I am ordering the right plugs for the old Palmer. Anything I should be looking for in-particular for the plugs?

I've recently replaced the condenser in the distributor...will the plugs in the "tuneup kit" from the Moyer website be the right ones for a Palmer if anyone knows? (I'd like to support Moyer if possible)
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:25 PM
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I found an old fuel pressure gauge. If you don't mind the glycerine being a bit brown send me your address and it is yours.
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Old 04-13-2020, 05:39 PM
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I found an old fuel pressure gauge. If you don't mind the glycerine being a bit brown send me your address and it is yours.
Really!! Thanks! Although I could go buy one, but I'll take it.

I still think it is now spark related, but good to have an install anyways since I will be re-doing my whole fuel line set up.


I had my personal info on here, but decided to send you a PM

I trust you guys, but don't know whose lurking in from behind the scenes

I'd be more than happy to pay the shipping...the very least I could do!

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Old 04-14-2020, 12:17 PM
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Adam, I sent you a PM, check for it.

Dave Neptune
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:13 PM
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Have you checked the boat's part of the ignition system key -> coil?
Start the engine and shake the wires. Especially at the end connectors. If there is any intermittent loose connections the engine will stop.
Also there is a plug(s) in the wiring between the key and the coil pull it apart to see if the contacts are clean and bright.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:05 PM
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Have you checked the boat's part of the ignition system key -> coil?
Start the engine and shake the wires. Especially at the end connectors. If there is any intermittent loose connections the engine will stop.
Also there is a plug(s) in the wiring between the key and the coil pull it apart to see if the contacts are clean and bright.

ex TRUE GRIT
Good idea for a quick check.

Also, had a great phone call with Dave Neptune yesterday (I really appreciate it Dave!) this whole forum as been so helpful. He suggested the same thing as a something for me to check. Really opened my eyes to other possibilities and easy to do routine checks.

Again, everyone on here has been so helpful, I can't thank you all enough!
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Old 03-07-2021, 10:25 AM
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Engine stalling

Don’t know if you are still having this issue but I had a similar problem with my Palmer 60 for a year after I had replaced the cylinder head on the engine. Ran fine for about a half hour or more and then would gradually stall and would not restart until it cooled down. After chasing all of the same issues you described with no luck finally found the solution in the strangest place. Turns out that there is a small fitting and hose at the front (flywheel side) of the engine that is designed to vent steam that will build up in that side of the engine and not allow the front cylinder to properly cool. The reason for this vent is that the mounting of the engine tilting back front to back to accommodate a sailboat means that side of the engine is higher and would create an air pocket of steam if not released. The excess heat is most likely causing that cylinder to pre-fire as the fuel ignites before the fuel is compressed. The solution was as simple as making sure that the vent hose was open completely on both ends. Turns out that a little crustation had built a home there and plugged the vent. I used a paper clip to open the vent and have not had a problem since. A thank you to David Grosse mentioned earlier for the initial suggestion.
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Old 03-07-2021, 10:38 AM
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Starting issue

Reaching out to this tread for some additional assistance. Recently rebuilt my Zenith carb and after some lengthy tweaking (becoming an expert at removing and taking the carb apart) have it running fine but cannot get to start when cold. My only solution currently is to physically “choke” the carb by putting my hand over the intake to create enough suction to get fuel into the cylinders. Once it starts and is warm will restart every time. When it cools completely overnight need to go back to the manual process. This should happen with the choke but does not create enough suction. Did not make any changes to the choke on rebuild other than reattach the cable. Any thoughts? I’ve tried everything I can think of. Thank you.
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Old 03-07-2021, 11:23 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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How did you adjust the choke cable?
Here's the correct way.
In the cockpit support the knob ~ 1/4" off the stop by wrapping wire or something else around it.
At the carburetor secure the outer cover and pass the center wire through the choke. Hold the choke open, and pull the center wire tight with pair of pliers and tighten the hold down screw on the choke. This takes two hands and a tail but it can be done. Remove the wire that is holding the knob up off the stop, pull the knob up, and check to see if the choke is fully closed. When you open the choke all the way the knob will be ~ 1/4" off the stop.

ex TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 03-08-2021 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 03-08-2021, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
How did you adjust the choke cable?
... Hold the choke closed, and pull the center wire tight with pair of pliers and tighten the hold down screw on the choke. ...Remove the wire that is holding the knob up off the stop, pull the knob up, and check to see if the choke is fully closed.
ex TRUE GRIT
Could you please clarify, if one attaches the wire with the choke held closed, how can one pull any more on the knob to close the choke more? With the choke a 1/4" from the stop, wouldn't the choke would remain in a "closed" position?
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