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Old 10-04-2021, 07:39 PM
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Over propped?

In forward, my engine maxes out at 970 rpm.
In neutral, she revs to the moon and back.

1. pulled the plugs - very sooty and dry.
2. compression test - 120,120,100,120.
3. pulled flame arrester - no change.
3a. choke is open
4. loosened packing gland - no change.
5. pulled exhaust off the manifold - no change.
5a. no loose flakes or obstructions inside the manifold.
6. dumped my old fat butt over the side to inspect the prop - clean with no fouling.

This year I changed out the Indigo 10x7 for a Darglo Featherstream 12x7. I knew I'd lose some rpm with the 2 inch extra diameter, but not this much!

Suggestions?

Rick Bushie
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Old 10-04-2021, 07:47 PM
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oh, and I don't have a vacuum gage...nor a back pressure gage. I know those are the next questions.

another oh, the rpm quoted above is shaft rpm (direct drive)taken at the output coupling with a laser optical tach. I don't have an engine tachometer.
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Old 10-04-2021, 07:51 PM
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To eliminate them as possibilities I'd check the timing and centrifugal advance operation. No way a 12x7 is seriously overpropped. You should get 2000 RPM in forward all day long with a 12x7.
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Old 10-04-2021, 08:05 PM
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advance weights are free and lightly lubed.

timing set to best rpm under what little load I can put it under.
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Old 10-04-2021, 09:03 PM
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Are you running on three cylinders not four? Easy to check. Pull the spark plug wires one at a time while the engine is running under load and note any change in performance.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 10-05-2021, 07:39 AM
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My Tartan 34c had a 12x 7 or x 8 with a direct drive A4 when I bought it 20 years ago. The boat
maxed out at 1700 rpm producing 6 knots in calm water.
In a heavy chop it would lug and only produce 2 or 3 knots.

The Indigo prop was specifically designed for this boat. With it
the boat can do 6.6 in calm waters and over 5 in heavy chop with a clean bottom. The trade off is a much weaker reverse thrust

I have seen other people try to use the Indigo on a A4 reduction drive on a Bristol 32
which did not produce more than 4 1/2 knots. I gave him my old prop and it worked much better for him.

Best Art
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Old 10-05-2021, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
In forward, my engine maxes out at 970 rpm.
In neutral, she revs to the moon and back.

1. pulled the plugs - very sooty and dry.
2. compression test - 120,120,100,120.
3. pulled flame arrester - no change.
3a. choke is open
4. loosened packing gland - no change.
5. pulled exhaust off the manifold - no change.
5a. no loose flakes or obstructions inside the manifold.
6. dumped my old fat butt over the side to inspect the prop - clean with no fouling.

This year I changed out the Indigo 10x7 for a Darglo Featherstream 12x7. I knew I'd lose some rpm with the 2 inch extra diameter, but not this much!

Suggestions?

Rick Bushie
Something is way wrong. That prop is a normal A4 size assuming it is a 2-blade.
Are you sure the laser tach is working right?
Is the prop shaft free? You should be able to turn it by hand easily in neutral.
Are you SURE you have the right firing order? There is way to swap the plug wires and get a fairly smooth 2 cylinder engine.
You need a vacuum gauge. You really need one. Moyer sells them, there are tons on FleaBay and Amazon, the local car parts place sells them, and so on.
Are you sure the prop is clean? My boat has been fouling at an incredible rate this year.

See photo - the gauges let you know what is going on. High vacuum and low RPM means the engine is at least trying.
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:25 AM
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You don't have enough torque for that much blade area if it is a 3 or 4 blade. The reason the indigo rev's up is the blade area is matched to the torque of the A-4.

The 12 x 7's you here of on the A-4's are almost all 2 blade props. I ran the Indigo on my E35MKII and it worked great in all conditions.

And if you're racing you'd do better with the 3 blade rating than the feathering with that big ball dragging through the water.

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-05-2021, 10:35 AM
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Does your prop look like this?


If so, you are WAY over propped. You need a 12x6 or 12x7 TWO blade prop!
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Old 10-05-2021, 05:29 PM
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Joe, Dave, John,
that is my prop...three blade feathering. I'm fairly certain the strobe-tach is working, but regardless, the engine just barely rises off of high idle speed and maxes out there. I've been reading the forum long enough to realize that I need an installed tach, a vacuum gage for the fuel line, a vacuum gage for the intake manifold, a back pressure gage available as needed, etc, etc, etc... I just never seem to close that loop. she's definitely firing on all four...I used a test light to short out each plug one at a time and watched for rpm drop. Prop is clean and feathering properly, I dove on it Sunday morning. Shaft rotates freely.

I assume that I'm the only person alive who hates the Indigo prop. I've found it absolutely worthless in reverse, and barely acceptable in forward to drive my relatively small boat at 4.5 knots max.

The Featherstream, even barely off idle, gives instant response in reverse. I like that. That being said, I can't abide taking six months to steam 200 yards to the pump out station.
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Old 10-05-2021, 06:06 PM
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MY EXPERIENCE WITH REVERSE

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
The Featherstream, even barely off idle, gives instant response in reverse. I like that. That being said, I can't abide taking six months to steam 200 yards to the pump out station.
Not trying to be argumentative here...........

I found after that awhile I got the feel of how my boat handled in reverse and I didn't mind the fact that reverse control wasn't quite should be.
The prop pushed the boat forward well. I used the engine to push the boat forward most of the time. Reverse control was very minor and incidental so I let it be.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 10-05-2021, 06:10 PM
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Rick,

I see from my records that you had Indigo Prop S/N 1474 on a C&C 30. Indigo props are installed on nearly 60 C&C 30s with no reports of the issues you have outlined.

With your 25 ft waterline length, you should be able to make 6 knots at 2000 RPM all day long. If you were only obtaining 4.5 knots then there is something terribly amiss with your A4.

As for reverse performance, the Indigo prop requires significantly more RPM in reverse to obtain suitable reverse thrust. Having said that, I am sure you are aware that you have to hold back on the shift lever to keep the tranny in reverse and at the high RPMs, the reversing gear elements sound quite awful. That is just the way they are. As a reference point, I was able to stop my 12,000 lb. Tartan 34 in about 2 boat lengths from a 6 knot ahead speed. It was a very rowdy experience but the Indigo prop provided plenty of reverse thrust to get the job done.

I would pick the Forums many brains for possible A4 issues. There is definitely something that has not yet been addressed.

The new feathering prop you have is definitely too much prop for even an A4 that is operating properly.

Tom Stevens
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Old 10-05-2021, 06:55 PM
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Rick,

I forgot to ask, what RPM were you seeing when your boat was making 4.5 knots ahead? Also, was the Indigo prop clean at that time?

Tom
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Old 10-05-2021, 08:49 PM
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Tom,

I would like to point out that I said "...I'm the only person alive who hates the Indigo prop". Everyone, and I do mean everyone gushes about their experiences, that's why I bought it.

Around 2100 rpm achieved 4.5 knots in a calm slack tide. the engine revs in neutral over 3000rpm (I get scared before I reach full throttle). In reverse she revved just about as high as in neutral.

I've been fortunate as far as fouling is concerned...at most one or two barnacles over the season. If i'm not getting underway on any given weekend, I make sure I steam forward and reverse at the dock to get water moving past the prop and at least some of the bottom...so prop is usually clean.

Reversing does indeed stop the boat quite well as long as I don't mind making so much noise that it sounds like I'm avoiding a collision (mine is the only A4 equipped boat in the marina).

My docking situation is such that I have just over a boat length in which to back into my slip. By the time I gain enough speed for effective steerage, I'm halfway into the slip, and not always positioned the way I want or need to be. Of course, after 15-20 seconds of the A4 screaming like a banshee in reverse, everyone on the dock has eyes on me and my rookie looking maneuvers.

I believe I installed the Indigo in 2013. That's nine seasons to get to know her and learn how to work around the shortcomings. Maybe you're right. Maybe I need to plunk the cash on a fresh engine. I believe she's original (1971) but I'm not certain.

Thanx for the input and suggestions.
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Old 10-05-2021, 09:30 PM
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Rick,

It sounds like the pitch of your Indigo Prop is too low, maybe down in the 6 range. That is about the only thing that would explain its poor performance. The only other thing that would allow your A4 to get to 2100 RPM at just 4.5 knots would be the forward clutches are slipping. I do not believe that is the case, however, as you are not quite getting 1000 RPM with your new prop. With its high torque requirement, the tranny would surely slip if it was out of adjustment.

If I was to email you a UPS shipping label, would you be willing to ship your Indigo prop to me for an inspection and potential adjustment of pitch?

Tom
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Old 10-06-2021, 07:16 AM
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As shown in the photo I posted, I am doing 6.2 knots in a bigger heavier C&C 35 with an Indigo prop. If memory serves, I was able to do at least 4 knots *towing a C&C 40*. There is something quite wrong somewhere.
My reverse is OK, not amazing, but the A4 is always going to be like that with the reduction gear. I recently had to back out of a slip in Rock Hall into a very narrow fairway with about 20 knots on the starboard quarter and managed to do so.

Last edited by joe_db; 10-06-2021 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 10-07-2021, 03:20 PM
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Rick,

The thought just occurred to me that since you have a C&C32, was it perhaps built in Canada? For many years a "de-tuned" version of the Atomic 4 known as the "Stevedore" was sold in Canada. This de-tuning was accomplished via the installation of an orifice about 3/4" ID in the manifold just above the flange where the carb attaches. I saw an image of the orifice arrangement recently but I cannot recall where. Perhaps someone on the Forum has an image.

This orifice effectively reduced the max HP to about 20 as I recall. That would completely explain your engine maxing out at 2100 RPM at 4.5 Knots.

Food For Thought.

Tom
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Old 10-07-2021, 04:45 PM
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Tom,

Thank you for your generous offer to pay postage to inspect my prop. I don't believe the prop was the issue with poor forward speed as much as a tired engine. Although compression is good and she starts right up since last winter's valve adjustment, I think 50 years of service deserves retirement. I've already reached out to Moyer about a long block and head to put in this winter.

I bought your prop to replace a crappy, sloppy old Martec folder which gave me nothing but trouble mostly concerning partially unfolding. The vibration was so bad that I broke a strut the first year I owned Anchovy. I was thrilled with the Indigo when I splashed that spring. No more vibration. Trouble free. The forward speed never really bothered me...I figured it was a function of the prop being so small. I honestly didn't know I should be going faster.

Then I started seeing dock mates controlling their boats into the slip with just shifting between forward and reverse without touching the throttle and wondered what I was doing wrong. All of these boats had feathering props. I just had to have one!

Last winter I plunked down a chunk of change on the Featherstream (by the way, it's 11x7, not 12x7 as I said earlier...still too much prop). I spent most of the season day sailing where I basically idled out of the marina and had sails up within 10 boat lengths. I was finally backing into my slip without throttling up. I had instant grip in reverse and had full steerage with half a boat length. It wasn't until we went on a week long cruise in August that I found out I had a problem.

I have been in touch with Darglow, and the are very interested in modifying the Featherstream with respect to modifying the blade chord width to reduce wetted surface area. The Indigo has a chord width of approximately 2 7/8" while the Featherstream is 3 3/4".

I don't know if the feathering prop will be workable and if not, I still have the Indigo that I can put back on. Either way, I still plan to repower over the winter.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
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Old 10-07-2021, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
Tom,

Thank you for your generous offer to pay postage to inspect my prop. I don't believe the prop was the issue with poor forward speed as much as a tired engine. Although compression is good and she starts right up since last winter's valve adjustment, I think 50 years of service deserves retirement. I've already reached out to Moyer about a long block and head to put in this winter.

I bought your prop to replace a crappy, sloppy old Martec folder which gave me nothing but trouble mostly concerning partially unfolding. The vibration was so bad that I broke a strut the first year I owned Anchovy. I was thrilled with the Indigo when I splashed that spring. No more vibration. Trouble free. The forward speed never really bothered me...I figured it was a function of the prop being so small. I honestly didn't know I should be going faster.

Then I started seeing dock mates controlling their boats into the slip with just shifting between forward and reverse without touching the throttle and wondered what I was doing wrong. All of these boats had feathering props. I just had to have one!

Last winter I plunked down a chunk of change on the Featherstream (by the way, it's 11x7, not 12x7 as I said earlier...still too much prop). I spent most of the season day sailing where I basically idled out of the marina and had sails up within 10 boat lengths. I was finally backing into my slip without throttling up. I had instant grip in reverse and had full steerage with half a boat length. It wasn't until we went on a week long cruise in August that I found out I had a problem.

I have been in touch with Darglow, and the are very interested in modifying the Featherstream with respect to modifying the blade chord width to reduce wetted surface area. The Indigo has a chord width of approximately 2 7/8" while the Featherstream is 3 3/4".

I don't know if the feathering prop will be workable and if not, I still have the Indigo that I can put back on. Either way, I still plan to repower over the winter.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Don't let me stop you from buying a new engine, but do check for the Stevedore restriction. Also do get a manifold gauge ASAP, you need to know what the engine is doing. I can't get in or out of my slip shifting at idle, the A4 does not have enough thrust for that. Diesels have more low end torque, to the extent it can be a pain. One big motor yacht I had to deliver had something like twin 1200 HP diesels and did 7 knots *at idle*
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Old 10-07-2021, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
Last winter I plunked down a chunk of change on the Featherstream (by the way, it's 11x7, not 12x7 as I said earlier...still too much prop)
Says who and to what degree? The 12x7 might be a little aggressive but it's not terrible, certainly not so big as to be the sole cause of your performance problem. I'd guess there were well more than a thousand Catalina 30's powered with direct drive A4s and 12x7 two blade props from the factory that performed reasonably well.
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Old 10-07-2021, 07:14 PM
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Neil,

It's a three blade 11x7
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Old 10-07-2021, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
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It's a three blade 11x7
With boats and engines our size the number of blades, 2 or 3, isn't dramatically significant in engine loading. You may find noodling with the prop size calculator found here to be interesting. At the end they make recommendations on diameter and pitch of props with different numbers of blades. I tried it, put in the parameters of my boat and engine, the prop sizes it returned were virtually the same , 2 blade or 3 blade. Give it a try.
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Old 10-07-2021, 10:07 PM
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If I want to, hypothetically, install a vacuum gage, do I just tee off of the scavenger tube?
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Old 10-08-2021, 06:50 AM
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If I want to, hypothetically, install a vacuum gage, do I just tee off of the scavenger tube?
Yes - at the manifold, not the carb end.
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Old 10-09-2021, 09:06 AM
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Iím at the boat now. I reinstalled the exhaust last night so I can run the engine for vacuum troubleshooting.

This morning I pulled the carb to look for the Stevedore destructor at the urging of Indigo and others. No orifice plate.

While I have the carb out, I installed an adjustable main jet. Now the carb wonít go back in because the tee handle on the main jet hits the Facet pump before the carb flange lines up.

Gonna put the stock main jet back in and move on for now.

Iím at Tolchester if anyone wants beer or rum and a show.
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