Trouble Starting - Late Model

[pecos]

Hello All,
I have an Ericson 27 and think I may have a serious problem on my hands with the motor. It first started with a stuck valve. The motor kept stalling and I made the mistake cranking it with the raw water open. I believe this led to getting water in the oil. Anyways, the head was pulled off, valve unstuck, head replaced according to specifications, and the engine wouldn't start. I kept trying turning over but wouldn't fire up. I'm pretty sure it was getting gas, I could smell fuel when trying to start. I replaced the spark plugs and checked compression with the help of the boat's previous owner who had done a lot of work on the motor before, both of which seemed to be ok. In all my efforts to get her going I wore something out and rather than turning over there is just a grinding noise upon the turn of the key. I hoped maybe it was the starter so I replaced it. That wasn't the problem and I have no idea where to go from here. The grinding actually sounds like it's coming from the rear, transmission maybe? Anyways, I recorded the mess on my phone and posted the link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zNA8Mz-v9w

BTW, after numerous oil changes it seems like I've gotten at least most of the water out.

[marthur]

I have attached the hard starting checklist that Don has provided. You will see that there are three things to check for--fuel, compression and spark.

With new head gaskets and free valves compression should be OK. You smell fuel, so check for a wet plugs. Have you checked to see that you have spark? Do you have the plug wires on correctly?

[ndutton]

During the course of the head removal and valve repair was the distributor removed?

[Mo]

Absolutely ...ensure distributor is back in properly if it was removed. Secondly, you need to ask why the valve seized in the first place. If you have a broken manifold it will be hard to start (or not start) and you can have water in the oil from it. It can also cause the engine to run poorly.

First attempt a start by all normal means. Once you have attempted a start, then pull the plugs...water has a droplet left on the plug tip...gas doesn't do that and it just looks wet without a droplet hanging there. You may still smell gas but that doesn't mean it's not affected by water. So, if you see a droplet after trying to start water is getting into the top end.

My first guess, should that be the case, is the manifold. That could also put water in your oil. To rule out a broken manifold it would be a good idea to pressure test the manifold. There is a quick test to do this and you will pick up a substantial leak via this test. If the following test doesn't detect a leak by all means seal it and test with air and a gauge.

For now, try this:
-unhook the hose coming from the T stat
-remove hose going to the hot exhaust.
-Remove all spark plugs.
-Plug the end of the manifold on exhaust side, you may use your thumb.
-Blow into the manifold fitting closest to you allowing it to build pressure.
-As you do that listen for air coming from the spark plug holes...there should be none but if you hear any air leak your manifold is history.

If the problem turns out to be the manifold I'd like of offer one little bit of advice....call MMI for a new one and you will know what you have.

[ILikeRust]

I'm not hearing any "grinding" in that very short video...

[yeahjohn]

sounds like it should turn over. Check for spark?

[edwardc]

I'm not hearing any "grinding" in that very short video...

Me neither. Sounds like a perfectly normal starter cranking with the ignition off.

[Mo]

Edward and Bill:
I didn't hear anything either...so I didn't even mention it. I'm wondering if he has a fractured manifold that is putting out the fire in the top end...and leaving water in cylinders and valves.

Pecos:
Is the boat on the hard. If it is on the hard and in gear you will get noise from the cutless bearing...nothing to worry about. Carry on troubleshooting. Fuel, Fire, Air...and check that manifold,....especially if it was on the hard because that's where allot of them fail...secondary to ice. Just last weekend I was helping out on another thread and contemplating running my engine to see how long it would take to draw 5 gallons of water through. I figured we might get more frost so I held off....this morning is was -17 C here at the house and the boat is 3 miles away...that would have taken out my manifold if I'd drained my antifreeze. It happens so don't overlook it.

[pecos]

Sorry it took me a couple days to get back. Thanks a lot everyone for the replies. Sorry for the short clip, I didn't want to risk messing things up further. So the plugs did have some liquid on them though I'm not sure if it's water, marvel, or a combo. I had pulled them out a few times to wipe them off and they seem to be dry now. I'll take a longer vid to provide a more accurate scenario to reference.
So the "grinding" to me sounds like the starter is just spinning its wheels, so to speak, without actually engaging to get the motor cranking. This wasn't happening before when the engine wouldn't start and then just started happening. I think a further explanation of the scenario is in order but my time is somewhat limited at the moment so I'll post back in a day or two.
As for the water issue, it sounds like the manifold is worth a serious investigation. Oh, and the wiring is correct, I haven't really touched the distributer, only removed the cap briefly but nothing else was adjusted or removed, just the top plastic portion. More later...
Thanks again!

[ILikeRust]

So the "grinding" to me sounds like the starter is just spinning its wheels, so to speak, without actually engaging to get the motor cranking.

Certainly sounds to me like the engine is cranking. If the starter did not engage, it would just be a smooth "whirrr".

Oh, and the wiring is correct, I haven't really touched the distributer, only removed the cap briefly but nothing else was adjusted or removed, just the top plastic portion.

Are you absolutely positive you didn't bump anything (like the rotor) or nudged the distributor or possibly put the cap back on 180 degrees out from where it had been?

Just trying to be certain in ruling everything out...

[pecos]

Ok, so here's the whole scenario from the beginning and again, I'm not a mechanic so excuse any flubs in terminology.

Engine layout: Ericson 27, engine is tilted back toward the stern. Due to the layout of the engine compartment and boat?
1. starter battery was going dead on me so I spent a while cranking it with the raw water open.
2. battery was replaced but then after a few times out on the water it started sputtering again. Again, cranking it with raw water open resumed. At this time the spark plugs were replaced, the old ones weren't wet.
3. Worked with previous owner to figure out what was going on, we discovered the rear(#4) valve was stuck, apparently this is common.
4. New head gaskets were ordered, the head was removed and the gasket replaced, we received two but only replaced the one that had been there. Found out this was a mistake afterwards but haven't added the second one yet.
5. During this process we found there was water in the oil and were kind of bummed.
6. MMO was added to the cylinders and valves to keep them lubed while we were away at our day jobs. The boat is 1.5 hours away so I can't just go up whenever I want to work on it.
7. After the head gasket was replaced and several oil changes I tried to start her up. It sputtered and was turning over but didn't start. It sounded like it wasn't getting gas but I could smell fuel throughout this time. There was spark and seemed to be ok compression using the thumb test. Raw water has been closed this whole time since the work started.
8. I pulled the new plugs out and they were a little wet but there was a bunch of Marvel's in the cylinders so I figured that might be why they were wet. I wiped them off a couple times and they seemed to dry out after several wipe downs but I will note that the #4 plug seemed to have the most "liquid" on it.
9. While I was trying to start it again, all of a sudden the engine stopped cranking and the loud whirling/grinding noise started. This is what was in the very short clip. That's all it's doing now when I turn the key; it's that noise that just keeps going without cranking the engine at all. The video was so short because I didn't want to keep it going fearing something else happening as a result. So I'm stuck. I called a mechanic and left a message but have yet to hear back so if anyone knows of any mobile mechanics in the North Bay Area(Richmond, CA to be exact), I'm open to suggestions. I'm honestly kind of over it at this point and just want to go sailing. I think I'm officially out of my league due to lack of experience and tools. That noise isn't coming from the starter, it's coming from toward the back of the engine. Can the distributor do
that?
10. So now I have possibly two problems, water in the oil and the engine not starting. I guess I need to start the engine or at least come closer to it in order to see if there really is a problem with water getting in somewhere.
Thank you for reading my novel, I hope it made sense to at least some degree.

And thanks again everyone for your replies, these always help to figure out what's going on or at least learn something myself.

[marthur]

9. While I was trying to start it again, all of a sudden the engine stopped cranking and the loud whirling/grinding noise started. This is what was in the very short clip. That's all it's doing now when I turn the key; it's that noise that just keeps going without cranking the engine at all. The video was so short because I didn't want to keep it going fearing something else happening as a result. So I'm stuck. I called a mechanic and left a message but have yet to hear back so if anyone knows of any mobile mechanics in the North Bay Area(Richmond, CA to be exact), I'm open to suggestions. I'm honestly kind of over it at this point and just want to go sailing. I think I'm officially out of my league due to lack of experience and tools. That noise isn't coming from the starter, it's coming from toward the back of the engine. Can the distributor do
that?

I do not hear a grinding noise in the video. I hear the starter motor rolling the engine over (sounds normal to me). If my motor sounded like what I can hear, I would not worry about using the starter or trying to start it.

I would wonder why it wasn't starting, though.

Since you mention a grinding noise, could it be that we can not hear it in your video? Pecos, perhaps you could describe what the motor sounded like before this change. Was it firing on some cylinders but not enough to run?

[JOHN COOKSON]

A Couple Of Ideas

Do a pressure test on the manifold as previously suggested. If the manifold pressure tests OK we'll go to the next step.
Remove the spark plugs or loosen them enough to break the compression then try the starter motor and see if you hear the grinding noise from the back of the engine. If the engine doesn't turn over freely then try a hand crank. My bet at the moment is the grinding noise and lack of engine turning over have nothing to do with the starter.

TRUE GRIT

[Mo]

If the boat is on the hard the noise he's hearing may be from the shaft turning as the engine turns over...and yes, check the manifold.

[ILikeRust]

Ok, so here's the whole scenario from the beginning and again, I'm not a mechanic so excuse any flubs in terminology.

Engine layout: Ericson 27, engine is tilted back toward the stern. Due to the layout of the engine compartment and boat?

Pretty much all of them will be tilted downwards, to allow for the prop shaft to exit the hull and have clearance for the prop to spin.

9. While I was trying to start it again, all of a sudden the engine stopped cranking and the loud whirling/grinding noise started. This is what was in the very short clip.

I for one can't hear any grinding noise in that video - not saying it's not happening; just that it's not noticeable in that video. Maybe a better quality video or move closer to the apparent source of the sound?

That noise isn't coming from the starter, it's coming from toward the back of the engine. Can the distributor do that?

I doubt it. But if you're on the hard, and it has slipped into drive, causing the prop shaft to spin while you're cranking, the shaft spinning in a dry cutless bearing and stuffing box will make a godawful noise and vibration and convince you you've utterly ruined the whole thing.