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Old 03-06-2013, 07:56 PM
taylor taylor is offline
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atomic 4 - 6 months of salt water - lost cause?

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on the atomic fourum. I’ve been reading a lot over the past couple of weeks. (Two weeks ago I knew nothing about engines. Yesterday I pulled the head on mine. Thank you guys for keeping up such a great forum.)

I bought a sailboat with a non-working A-4. I’m trying to get it going, and I’m trying to figure out whether this will be cost effective compared to simply purchasing a running or rebuilt A-4.

History of my engine:

PO says it was running great until it started producing black smoke (blowby?). He worked on it and got rid of the smoke, but it kept coming back every two months or so. He eventually had it pulled and rebuilt. (I’m not sure of the extent of the job.) And when he reconnected it and started it, water was coming out “from between the manifold and the carb.” He shut it off and left it. He had been working on it for too long and after a $2000 rebuild, did not want to hassle with the engine anymore. It has now sat for 6 months since he shut it off.

It’s raw water cooled, and I assumed that it would need a new manifold (that the current one must have enough internal corrosion that the cooling water was leaking into the other parts of the manifold), assuming the water was not in the engine.

However, as I’ve started troubleshooting, I’ve found the engine to now be seized. I pulled the head last night. The cylinders were full of salt water, and the head gasket was falling apart. I assume now that the source of the water was the only partially gasketted gap between the cooling passages in the head and the block. (PO says the gasket was replaced. I'm not sure.)

I cleared the cylinders and the cooling passages with a wet/dry vacuum and filled the cylinders with marvel mystery oil. I plan to try to turn the engine over once the MMO has sat a few days. In the meantime, I think I will dissemble, inspect, and clean the manifold and the carburetor to the extent possible.

I've attempted to attach a picture of the engine after I got the water out. (Not sure if it is here.)



Questions:

1. In the expert opinion of those here, can this engine be saved after sitting full of salt water for 6 months? (I've consulted a couple of people who say "No way. It's dead.")

2. If everything was working before the engine filled with water, what are the chances that new rings, gaskets, and valves (and possibly new pistons and a cylinder bore job from a machine shop) will be enough to get the engine running? (That is, is it likely that the alternator, coil, carb, flywheel, crankshaft, cooling system, etc are all forked from the salt water, too?)


3. I’ve found one on Craigslist that claims to be rebuilt (rings, bearings, valve grind/job ). The seller is asking $2600. The skeptic in me says that I could replace those parts for $400. The other skeptic in me says that this is hopelessly naïve as my engine is not running, and I don’t know whether new rings and valves plus a bit of elbow grease would be enough to make it work. What do you all think?

4. What further diagnostic steps would you recommend taking to determine the extent of the further damage?


Thank you for any help you guys can offer!


Taylor
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:38 AM
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How good is the boat that will receive an installed $3000 engine or a $1000 non rebuilt engine?
Can you see yourself doing most of a rebuild over a year or so?

Last edited by Sony2000; 03-07-2013 at 07:35 AM. Reason: ?
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:03 AM
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Hi Taylor,

Welcome aboard. Since you have the head off you now need to free up the engine. To do this mix up some actetone 50 /50 (compliments of ndutton) with some transmission fluid and put it in those cylinder bores...leave it a day and try to get that engine rotating...keep repeating until it moves.

Then, once you get it rotating, turn the crank and as the pistons move up and down in the bores and inspect the bores. Look for a small hole in them and /or a rust spot that has developed. If the bores look good you should be able to go on with putting a new head gasket etc and using the engine.

At this time it would be a good idea to suck some of the oil out of the base pan. Suck from the bottom of the base pan and see if you are sucking water out of there. A broken manifold could have put steam and or water into the combustion chambers; a broken head gasket would do the same; and a hole rusted through the block through a cylinder could possibly do it as well.

There are a few other areas water could "get on the wrong side" of its passages but I think if you check these ones out you will see what you have. All of the cylinders seem to have rust, so I'd be thinking manifold breach or massive water came back through exhaust...something along those lines. There are a few guys on here that could easily talk you through pressure testing your block as well.

Take a pic of your hot exhaust for us as well...looking at the pic cyl 3 and 4 look a little worse...that could drain through a ruptured head gasket, but I'm thinking more likely it will be water via poor exhaust setup or ruptured manifold.

Good luck and I hope it's not too serious.
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Last edited by Mo; 03-07-2013 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:56 AM
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Exclamation Oh boy 2 stuck ones

Taylor, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!
I too bought a frozen A-4 attached to a sailboat 29 years ago. I got it to spin and did a valve job and had to replace one exhaust valve. That engine is still running strong today!! The A-4 is quite resistant to the woes of rust due the the nickel content.
From the pic you posted I'd say mine looked a lot worse as the water line was over the starter and the engine was full.
There is hope and you got to believe!
I'd also say the PO cranked with the water intake open and that is how the water enchroachment started.
Patience is going to be needed getting it free.

Dave Neptune
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:39 PM
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I'm one that believes that siezed engines can be restarted, and you could afford to risk the time trying, since it is in the boat and connected.. But the cylinder wall rusting scares me. It probably is excessive.
All this to say I've seen a tool that gently resufaces the walls of cylinders, by spinning three small pads of stone around, at the end of drill.
Then if you get the compression up to 70 psi, running it, may get you more!
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Taylor, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!
I too bought a frozen A-4 attached to a sailboat 29 years ago. I got it to spin and did a valve job and had to replace one exhaust valve. That engine is still running strong today!! The A-4 is quite resistant to the woes of rust due the the nickel content.
From the pic you posted I'd say mine looked a lot worse as the water line was over the starter and the engine was full.
There is hope and you got to believe!
I'd also say the PO cranked with the water intake open and that is how the water enchroachment started.
Patience is going to be needed getting it free.

Dave Neptune
I should have mentioned cleaning up the valves...for they likely are going to be stuck as well, just as Dave says. If, as Dave suggested, he continued to crank it with the raw water valve open it would indeed flood the combustion chambers with water as well. You would think an experience owner would know not to do that.

I was leaning toward exhaust back-flow because if the engine was out for a rebuild the hot exhaust may have been altered causing a problem.
You will need to pressure test the manifold for sure. So, there's lots of things to check but certainly no need to panic at this point...it will all come.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:19 PM
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Welcome

Yea, work on the idea that you are getting this one running. You will be, at the least by those actions, preserving the parts and block better for a rebuild if needed. But, I'll bet a six pack you can save it.

Don't get too disappointed if your repairs start nickle-and-diming you.
My engine was not seized by rust, but I still spent over $1200 on bits just getting it going. It won't be as cheap as you would hope. If this one is toast You may find another cheap parts engine to act as an organ donor. This is, of course, is going to occupy more garage space and invite glares of disapproval from any or all cohabitants of your home.

A better pic or closeup of the cylinders would help some.

Welcome,
Russ
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:41 PM
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Thank you everyone for the welcome and for your input so far.

Sony: Is your wife good enough to warrant the time you spend on her? I like my boat. It’s a ’73 Ericson 29. The hull, deck hardware, and rigging are all in great shape. I’m a dinghy sailor, and I bought this boat to learn as much as possible about maintaining a keelboat. Eventually, I want to do some bluewater cruising (maybe with this boat, maybe with another). In the meantime, spending a year rebuilding an old Atomic 4 sounds fun.

Dave and Russ: Thanks for the encouragement! I’ve got an outboard and I’m okay spending some time on this (and learning a lot about the atomic 4 on the way.) As far as an organ donor, I’m living aboard the boat as I restore it. It’s already become clear to me that I cannot have engine parts all over my very small living space for more than a couple of days, and I’m not sure how many engines my girlfriend will let me put in her backyard. One seems like it might already be pushing it….

Mo: I’ve got Marvel Mystery Oil soaking in the cylinders right now. Should I remove it to add the acetone/transmission fluid mix? How does one suck oil from a base pan? I imagine I’m not supposed to siphon by mouth…. : ) Do you mean that I should remove ALL of the oil, or that I should take out some so that I can see whether there is water emulsified in it?

I’ve been thinking that a ruptured manifold could’ve been the issue. I’ve been trying to get the manifold off so that I can see inside, but I can’t get at the bolts on the bottom while the engine is in the boat (I’ve got the upper three out already). I disconnected the hot exhaust, and the exhaust flange is also very corroded. I’ll get a pic up this evening. I’ll also post one of the cylinders (though they are full of Marvel Mystery Oil at the moment).

Also, the Marvel Mystery Oil was a pinkish color when I poured it in. It’s now got sort of a bluish haze in it. Does that mean anything to anyone?

And the valves should only move up and down as the engine turns over, right? (They don’t move when I push on them, but I assume I should not be able to move them up or down while the engine is seized.)
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:06 PM
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Taylor, there are three studs that hold the manifold on, on my engine. It sounds like you have it disconnected.

What other bolts do you think hold it on?
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:12 PM
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There are two machine screws at the bottom which appear to connect the manifold to the carburetor. I can't see in that side very well though--tight quarters.

Is that not correct? Should I just start yanking at it?
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:20 PM
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The manifold to carb bolts?

The carb is attached to the manifold and not to any other solid part of the engine or boat.. You will still have the choke and throttle linkage. At the air intake, you will have the spark arrester, and some crankcase ventilation tube.
The carb can stay attached to the manifold for removal.

So yes you can try to loosen the manifold. If you took the studs out then it will go in any direction. If the studs are still in, it will only move in that direction.

Also, there is the exhaust flange at one end of the manifold, usually the aft end. That will need to be free also.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:27 PM
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Awesome! I really wanted to take off the carb, too. So this is convenient. (I was trying really hard to find bolts for it and failed. But with my head mashed against the wall I assumed I had just missed them.) The exhaust flange and raw water inlet hose are already off. Two of the studs are still in.

I'll give it a shot this evening.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:37 PM
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I hope a picture of my manifold is here.

You can just look at the online catalog here. Find a picture of the manifold that MMI sells. You will see the stud holes and carb flange.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:45 PM
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Here I think I got it now.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:47 PM
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I see! It's all disconnected then. Just have to take the hoses off the carb.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:48 PM
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If you right click, and choose view picture, It might help.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylor View Post
I see! It's all disconnected then. Just have to take the hoses off the carb.
This is where you spill gas in the bilge.

Fire and explosions is bad. Be safe.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:38 PM
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Mo: I’ve got Marvel Mystery Oil soaking in the cylinders right now. Should I remove it to add the acetone/transmission fluid mix? How does one suck oil from a base pan? I imagine I’m not supposed to siphon by mouth…. : ) Do you mean that I should remove ALL of the oil, or that I should take out some so that I can see whether there is water emulsified in it?

Also, the Marvel Mystery Oil was a pinkish color when I poured it in. It’s now got sort of a bluish haze in it. Does that mean anything to anyone?

And the valves should only move up and down as the engine turns over, right? (They don’t move when I push on them, but I assume I should not be able to move them up or down while the engine is seized.)
I'd swap out the MMO for the A/TF mix. Better medicine for this problem.

You get oil out of the engine with an oil change pump. My favorite device for this is the Topsider, a relatively inexpensive metal tank sold more cheaply at [edit:] NORTHERN TOOL than at West Marine. You vacuum out the tank with an attached hand pump - easy work. You then stuff a clamped tube into the crankcase through the engine's oil fill pipe or dipstick hole, unclamp the tube, and the vacuum in the tank slurps out the oil - also easy work. You then wipe off the tube on your workpants or nearest stray boatyard cat and dispose of the oil from the tank. It works a lot faster with warm, runny oil, but it will work with cold, viscous oil too. It'll work GREAT with the MMO.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too..._390306_390306

Manual oil change pumps requiring you to directly draw out the oil by pulling on a piston are a LOT of work and take a long time to do the job, especially with cold oil, and a good one costs more than a Topsider. Electric oil change pumps are expensive and large - I have never wanted one, but can see how they'd be useful if you own a service station and put it to work ten times a day.

Unless the engine has been run with water in the oil, I would not expect to see much in the way of emulsification in what you draw out. The oil is probably sitting on top of the water. The point of removing the liquid from the crankcase is really to get as much of the water out of it as you can. Later on down the road once the engine starts up you'll be doing a few oil changes in quick succession after you've emulsified whatever water is left in the crankcase.

YOUR MMO HAS TURNED BLUE? As long as you haven't detected a notorious wintergreen scent, you haven't breathed any of the vapor. But if you smelled wintergreen, that's methyl salicylate, a deadly nerve agent. You should expect parts of your body to soon become numb, turn that same blue color, and then fall off. The good news is that you probably won't succumb entirely, and will likely maintain the use of at least some digits of one limb. Actually I've never seen MMO turn blue but I wouldn't worry a bit about it.

A valve moves up as the camshaft turns and part of the shaft pushes it up (simultaneously compressing the valvespring), and down as the shaft turns away from the valve and the valvespring pops it down again. The only time a valve moves without the camshaft in the equation is if one gets stuck open with more friction than the valvespring can overcome, and you pop it down manually. You might have this opportunity once you get the engine running again if there's corrosion around the valve stems. You don't need to worry about it yet, nor should you expect those valves to move much on their own ALTHOUGH it may be possible to gently pull up the valves that are closed now and have them drop back down again. You should definitely not beat on the valves that are open to see if they'll move unless you're positive that they're stuck.

Last edited by tenders; 03-07-2013 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:42 PM
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I'm trying really hard to be safe. I'm afraid to use my stove.

I'll put a bowl under it before taking the hoses off.

Any advice on how to get the old gas out of the tank (and make sure that when I hook up a running motor it doesn't ruin the thing)?

How about tips on emptying the oil? (What do you use to suck it out?)


t
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:50 PM
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Just use a rag to drip gas on. Then hang the rag outside.

I use the electric fuel pump on the engine to remove the old gas. Also I have used one of those Jabsco hand pumps. You know the one? About a foot long, with 1/2 or 5/8 inlet and out.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:51 PM
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Tenders,

Thanks for that explanation. I'll look into the pump you mentioned. Also, I'll get the MMO the hell out of my very small living space. It definitely smells like sickly wintergreen. I did not realize how toxic that is. Though I'm glad I was not intentionally sniffing it.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:54 PM
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Romcom - I've got one of those pumps. I'll try it out for the gas.

I don't want to keep saying it, but thanks everyone for the help. I realize that the Moyer bible can only have so much info, and the explanations you guys are giving me are pure gold.


t
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:33 PM
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Hi, so, here is a shot of the hot exhaust (forgot to get a closeup of the cylinders). I got the carb and manifold off last night and drained the MMO from the cylinders. I’ll fill them with the acetone/tranny fluid mix once I’ve gotten the engine out of the boat (my living space) and into the spot where I’ll be working on it. The hand pump was a great idea. I’m going to use that to empty the oil in preparation for pulling the engine.

The manifold is REALLY CORRODED inside. The hot exhaust and exhaust flange, as you can see, are pretty corroded, too.


I’ve been talking to people, and I’m going to look at a cheap, running Atomic 4 tomorrow morning. I’m thinking that I can have that running and in use while I work on the other engine (which may be a long project). If I get it and hook it up, is there anything I need to watch out for?

-Do I need to empty and clean the gas tank? (It has sat for 6 months, and judging by the carb, it is still gasoline. But the tank is 40 years old, and possibly full of sediment or debris from years of use.)

-Do I need to replace the corroded hot exhaust and exhaust flange?
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:24 PM
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The corrosion on your hot section means that you're getting water or moisture backing up to the manifold.

This is not surprising, as your hot section seems to have no riser section whatsoever. Once the engine is stopped, any cooling water remaining in the water injection point can make its way straight back to the manifold as the boat pitches and rolls. (unless you have a standpipe exhaust system).

Based on this, I would advise rebuilding the hot section, and put in as much riser as you have room for.



It's a pretty easy project, as the hardest part is getting the old system off, and you're most of the way there already! Use black iron pipe (NOT galvanized!) available at any hardware store.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:15 PM
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The exhaust flange looks pretty meaty. I would take it apart and see if you can get a pipe to thread. You may have to cut off the pipe close to the flange, then slit it with a hack saw, and collapse it in ward.
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