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  #1   IP: 73.27.33.134
Old 07-11-2021, 11:07 AM
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Losing water

Good morning everyone,
First, I am a new poster to the forum, however I have read several threads in the past. That being said I have made several mistakes on this boat with this engine already and it has been a steep learning curve. Here is the issue.
A couple of months ago I bought my first sailboat, a 1969 Bristol 32. When we looked at the boat the atomic 4 engine seemed to have no issues. However when we picked up the boat the following weekend it was draining all the water from the fresh water cooling tank. Now in-between the time of looking at the boat and picking it up the PO had replaced the water pump impeller. We took the boat anyway and just continued to fill the water tank as it drained. Eventually the fuel pump died and we were towed to an anchorage. After replacing the fuel pump I tried to start her back up... Several times... With all the water valves open. I now know this is probably what caused the water I found on the spark plugs, however at the time, having only tinkered with car engines, I assumed it was a blown head gasket. So after buying an outboard to get the boat to a yard we tried to get the engine turning to test compression, only to fine the engine had seized and no amount of effort was able to get her turning again. So sticking with the out oard we pulled the A4 for a rebuild and brought the boat to a mooring. While disassembling the A4 I found a working one for rather cheap a few hours away, that PO had replaced it with a diesel inboard. It came with several extra parts and maintenance papers and had had a full rebuild sometime around the early 2000's. However the PO had pulled it after he bought the boat and let it sit outside in a yard for a while. After getting it home and making sure the compression was good I took parts off my old engine, like the new fuel pump, the water pump, exhaust manifold, and transmission (because the new one had a v drive), I then assembled it and got it back into the boat. It took me a while to get it running however because the carburetor float needed to be adjusted. Eventually however I got her running. Only to find that water is still getting pumped into the oil and I'm losing water in the overflow tank again. I have tried both exhaust manifolds, and checking to.make sure all of the water hoses from the FWC system and the RWC system at hooked up correctly. She starts with a little persuasion, but she runs with oil pressure maxed on the guage and now the raw water seems to have stoped flowing. So now I'm down to the only parts from the old engine are the water pump, carburetor, fuel pump, exhaust pipe, FWC and RWC systems. Is it possible that the MMI water pump is pumping water into the oil? I have a few rebuilt Oberdorfer Pumps that I can replace it with, I'm going to inspect for weephole leakage today. Every time I start and stop the engine I make sure the through hulls are closed for the water system to prevent water getting back in, could there be another intrusion point. I'm also going to test the water system pressure and adjust the oil pressure today. What are the odds that I have 2 engines with the same losing water problem? My assumption is it has to do something with the water pump because the engine was running fine for over 30 mins with clean oil when we looked at the boat, then he changed the impeller and now there is problems. And those problems have persisted through 2 engines with the same pump.
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to include the whole story for a better diagnosis.
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Old 07-11-2021, 02:37 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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First welcome to the MMI Forum.

Since it is doing the same thing with both engines I lean towards the exhaust system and the H/X. You could be loosing tank coolant through the H/X and have a glitch in the exhaust like a sticky anti syphon valve.

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  #3   IP: 73.27.33.134
Old 07-11-2021, 04:09 PM
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I thought it might be the exhaust as well, however mine doesn't seem to have a anti siphon valve. It's one long pipe that goes from the engine to the back of he boat with a jacket that goes over it most of the way. so the only point the water actually mixes with the exhaust is at the transom. That being said I have seen water coming out the meeting point between the exhaust flange and the exhaust manifold because the gasket between them was not fully tightened.
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Old 07-11-2021, 04:17 PM
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Update: I went out to the boat today and replaced the water pump, that supposed new impeller was broken to pieces. I installed a fully rebuild Oberdorfer pump. I also replaced the impeller in the raw water pump on the front of the engine. I then started the engine and was able to see water coming out the back of the boat. However there was no freshwater circulating, I pulled off the thermostat housing, I have no thermostat in there. I read somewhere a while ago before I installed this engine that FWC systems don't need a thermostat so I pulled the old stuck thermostat out and set it aside. Could that be part of my problem? Also I did a compression test on the cylinders again and got:
1 - 0psi
2 - 60psi
3 - 60psi
4 - 80psi
I also checked all the valves because I thought I saw water leaking from the valve cover ( it seems to have been water dripping from above instead) and I figured while I had the cover off to inspect the valves and all of them were functioning normally. So I'm fairly confident that it's not a stuck valve in cylinder 1.
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Old 07-18-2021, 03:22 PM
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While on the boat today I tested the water systems separate from each other. The fresh water system if not leaking into the oil. I had a UV tracer in the fresh water and checked the oil several times after adding it and have yet to find any in the oil. So that's leading me to believe that the problem is in fact the exhaust system. I changed the oil today and messed with the exhaust system a bit to make sure there was no kinks or anything and I pressure tested the water jacket. I have a double wall copper exhaust pipe system, I have only found one thread mentioning this where Don Moyer was describing it a bit. I'm thinking of disconnecting where the water enters the exhaust pipe at the transom and running it out another through hull, would that be a bad idea?
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Old 07-18-2021, 03:27 PM
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I recommend pressure testing the water jacket around the exhaust pipe.
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Old 07-18-2021, 04:24 PM
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I did that and it held 20psi for about 20 or 30 minutes
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Old 07-18-2021, 09:15 PM
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I may have misunderstood so here come the questions:
  1. When you said you pressure tested the water jacket in post #5 I thought you meant the engine water jacket. Now I understand the test was the exhaust pipe water jacket, correct?
  2. Have you pressure tested either of the exhaust manifolds you have?
  3. Have you pressure tested the block?
  4. Have you pressure tested the heat exchanger (HX)?
  5. In post #5 you mentioned checking for kinks in the exhaust system. I'm at a loss to understand how a rigid water jacketed exhaust system gets kinked. Please explain further.
  6. Is there a high loop right before the exhaust thru-hull? Can you provide pictures or a sketch of your exhaust system?
The water jacketed exhaust pipe is typically fed with raw water so it is not involved in your coolant loss. The presence or absence of a thermostat will not cause a coolant loss either but if there is no thermostat you certainly need a way to restrict the bypass (the coolant path from the alternator side of the block to the thermostat housing).
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:04 PM
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Hey, sorry for the late reply I've been dealing with finals and end of the semester school stuff so I haven't been able to get out to the boat.
You are correct, I pressure tested the exhaust pipe, I haven't pressure tested anything in the block or manifold because I put a UV tracer into the freshwater system (the only water running through the block, and none of it made it's way into the oil. With that conclusion, I determined that the water has to be coming from the exhaust pipe. Now I haven't determined how yet but I think it has something to do there being no type of anti siphon valve. As a temporary solution I ran a hose from where the water mixes with the exhaust at the end of the pipe overboard. This way the water runs through the exhaust pipe water jacket but never mixes with the exhaust.
Yes the pipe is a copper jacket system from the manifold to the back of the boat then it connects to a lengthen of 1.5-2 feet of hose that connects it to the through hull. I will attach a drawing of the exhaust system where the black represents the hose and the rest is the pipe. At the end of the pipe you can see a copper elbow coming out of the water jacket and another one running into a portion of in jacketed pipe, that is where the water and exhaust mix. So I disconnected that hose, and ran it from the water jacket overboard.Name:  IMG_20210807_114757__01__01.jpg
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Old 08-07-2021, 04:26 PM
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Since you ran the water overboard "what is cooling the rubber hose" so it does not melt? The hose needs to be cooled.

Dave Neptune
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Old 08-08-2021, 02:23 PM
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You are correct, I have not thought of that. Still though, when it is hooked up properly I get water in the oil from the backflow. Even if I let the engine run a little after shutting off the water. And if I let it run before turning on the water.
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Old 08-08-2021, 03:05 PM
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Old 08-08-2021, 03:36 PM
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I'm missing something here. The symptoms are water in the oil and fresh water coolant loss. That's pretty simple to correlate but then water discharge at the end of the exhaust is a factor?
  1. The exhaust water is raw water and is isolated from the fresh water. The only place the two may mix is through a breach in the heat exchanger. I do not recall reading the HX had been pressure tested. Has it?
  2. Raw water could be finding its way up the exhaust via a breach in the exhaust piping water jacket but I think I read that it had been successfully pressure tested so that's off the table. Besides, it would not cause a fresh water loss.
  3. From what I'm reading it's far more likely the fresh water is finding its way into the crankcase - - thereby causing a water loss as you report - - via the block, head or manifold. Have these been pressure tested yet as I asked almost a month ago in post #8?
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Old 08-08-2021, 03:51 PM
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In the first reply to this post it had been suggested that there could be a leak in the heat exchanger causing the water loss in the fresh water system and the water intrusion into the oil could be coming through the exhaust system. 2 separate problems. I know that none of the fresh water was getting into the oil due to the tracer test. I put a UV tracer in the fresh water. I then disconnected the heat exchanger and ran the fresh water out of buckets. After running the engine for a bit there was more water in the oil but none of it contained the UV tracer. This led me to believe that the water in the oil had to be raw water from the exhaust system. So I did injected the heat exchanger entirely (converting the engine back to a raw water cooled engine, and then disconnected the hose at the end of the exhaust pipe where the water mixes into the exhaust. This solved the water in the oil problem. So now I need to figure out why the water is back flowing through the exhaust. I plan to effectively rebuild the heat exchanger because it is in really bad shape, that's why I believe it was leaking water somewhere. So no I have not pressure tested the block because, for now at least, I have stopped water intrusion into the oil. I just need to know why it was back flowing in the first place.
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:23 PM
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Also the fact that this same problem has now spanned 2 engines makes me believe that it's an exhaust problem.
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Old 08-08-2021, 08:25 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimikeg View Post
I thought it might be the exhaust as well, however mine doesn't seem to have a anti siphon valve.
This might not apply in this instance but anyway......
When a warm engine cools it can create enough of a vacuum to start siphon of water out of the exhaust system into the engine.


ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:58 AM
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i think that the connection between the water outlet of the jacketed pipe and the water injection point needs to have an anti-siphon valve in-between. The anti-siphon valve should be located as high as possible, at least above the waterline.

If the anti-siphon was placed at the inlet of the water jacketed pipe, that would still leave the entire volume of the jacket to potentially get sucked back into the manifold as the engine cools.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:22 PM
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Thank you John for the reply about the engine cooling, if the water intrusion was occuring over a period after shutting the engine off I would think you are correct, however it seems to happen immediately after shutting the engine off so I think the engine may not have cooled enough to cause the suction. However that is something I will keep in mind in the future if I noticed water intrusion over a longer period.
Ed, that's what I was thinking too, but why might it not have come like that from factory, of course I can't be sure that is still the original setup as the boat is from 1969, but the hoses have certainly been like that for a while so I do t understand why someone might not have fixed this before. There is an anti siphon valve immediately after the raw water inlet before it goes into the water pump, I don't know if that is supposed to handle the suction problem though.
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Old 08-13-2021, 03:25 PM
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UPDATE
So I went out to the boat today, during the 2 weeks I was at school the engine just sat. So since I've been back I've been spending all my time trying to get it started again and I finally did today. And it ran strong for about 30 minutes before I shut her down. Come to find out that about 3qts of water had entered the oil. I had also noticed while it was running that there was a spatter of water coming out the exhaust pipe so some water was in there. Also the hose connecting the manifold water outlet to the exhaust pipe water jacket inlet stayed pressurized for about 15 minutes after shutting the engine down, before I disconnected it and water started pouring out of the water jacket inlet. All of this even though I ran the engine with the water through hull closed until a few seconds after no water was coming out the back hose.
My theory is that maybe there is a crack in the water jacket that opens up when it warms up? Even though none of that tracer ended up in the oil when it was only running through the block and manifold I will try to pressure test both the block and manifold tomorrow on the boat. Also, don't know if this could have nay effect on the situation, but the oil pressure was maxed out on the guage when running, but it seems like the oil pressure adjustment screw is already pretty far out.
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Old 08-13-2021, 05:59 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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I remember reading in the forum sometime in the past about a plug in the valve area between cylinders 2 & 3(?) that sealed a passage between the cooling system and the rest of the engine that failed.
I'm going by memory here..... The plug was part of the manufacturing process. Some of the plugs that were used were common cast iron which corroded over the years which allowed communication between the cooling system and the rest of the engine. This allowed mega water into the oil.


ex TRUE GRIT

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Old 08-13-2021, 06:50 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Managed to find this. It took awhile. Post 2 #2.
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...read.php?t=274

ex TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 08-13-2021 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 08-14-2021, 11:06 AM
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I'll take a look at the valves today and see if that's where the water is coming from. It kind of makes sense as the cylinders are definitely not washed clean, however I don't understand how none of the tracer would have wound up in the oil, if I'm not mistaken that bolt would allow the water from the water jacket in. But either way I'll look at that and try to pressure test the block today.
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Old 08-14-2021, 03:08 PM
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Ok, I have breezed through the posts here. We are missing something here. Give me a call at nine 0 two four 8 three, eight five 2 4. I'm in Nova Scotia but something doesn't seem right. Need to zoom in on this issue.
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Old 08-14-2021, 05:08 PM
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So I went out to the boat today, instead of checking that bolt in the valve case I started with the pressure test of the block, because I figured if that passed there was no reason to look at it because it's not releasing any pressure. It did pass, it held 20psi for about 45 minutes to an hour. However when I pressure tested the manifold it held no pressure at all. I didn't pull that one off yet because I have a spare at home to I came home to test that one and it failed as well, air is escaping through the first opening on the front side of the engine.
So now I have a couple of questions.
1) how if the water is coming in through the exhaust manifold how did none of the uv tracer end up in the oil when it was run through the engine for several minutes?
2) is it possible to fix a manifold with this sort of beach in it's water jacket, or should I be looking for a new exhaust manifold?
I'm going to try to go pull the one on the engine off to take a closer look at where that leak could be.
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Old 08-14-2021, 08:55 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Re plumb the new manifold using the Thatch Modification by introducing water into the manifold at its low end. This will eliminate air pockets in the manifold water passage which will result in longer manifold life.
For more info search the forum by Thatch Modification.

ex TRUE GRIT
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