Valve Lifters

[caeruleus]

2 Dog, I'm in exactly the same place. Up with the cam, down with a tap from a hammer and a block of wood. Except I've only got two valves working as they should. 6 sticky. How could they all be mushroomed? Very weird.

[caeruleus]

Sony I can get all of them to turn with a wrench. And yeah, they stick in the up position. How could I trim down the valve guides without filling the gallery with a zillion little bits of metal...?

[Ball Racing]

Take them out through the bottom.
I would not take the trip down Sony's paths......

[lat 64]

Originally Posted by caeruleus

Yeah, the head is already off, and I can take the valves out with no problems. But the lifters themselves seem like they gotta be fat at the bottom. There's so much oil on them they should have freed up by now. If I could just slide them out that last little bit into the valve gallery and get them out I could put a mic meter on them and see if they're out at all. Am I understanding right that the valve guides themselves can be tapped up higher into the block? Isn't this kind of begging to deform the guide, and wind up with an even bigger set of hassles?

But now I'm wondering if I can get the cam out without removing the crankshaft. Which direction would it come out? And I'm assuming I may need a new camshaft seal pressed into the block afterwards, right?

It seems that every way I turn I've got difficulties.

And I'm looking at all the bolts. How does one put this engine on a stand?

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions...

Don't worry too much about a stand. You can work on this puppy on a bench.
It really sounds like it should just be disassembled and put back together all clean and shiny. I think any hack-saw mods are going to introduce grit into the engine. Don't get frustrated with a repair, do a rebuild!

[ILikeRust]

I have to say I have a really hard time believing the lifters can be "mushroomed" at the bottom. More likely they're just gunked up or slightly rusty at that last bottom bit.

If you've got the engine opened up already (and I'm not clear on exactly how far you've disassembled the engine), then pull out the cam shaft and they will slide right down and out.

[ILikeRust]

caeruleus - do you have the Moyer Marine Service and Overhaul Manual?

If not, you need it.

Click here.

[ILikeRust]

I would like to highlight this excellent and most helpful photo posted by Lat 64:



First, note that this photo is from the underside of the block - it looks like the block is on its side or mostly upside-down in that shot - so the lifter is being slid back into the block going "upwards" into its bore - which, IMHO, is the way to do them, rather than try to force/finagle them out up the top, which there is not enough clearance to do unless you first remove the adjusting bolt on top of the lifter.

Second - and more significantly - look closely at the bottom end of the lifter, right in between his finger and thumb. You will see a brownish band going around the lifter. That is the part of the lifter left exposed down inside the crankcase. That little band is a ring of sticky goo consisting of ancient combustion by-products and oil. THAT is what causes your lifter to stick and be difficult to pull all the way up through the bore if you're trying to pull it upwards.

When I overhauled my engine, I found that on my lifters, and I cleaned them all with mineral spirits and some fine steel wool - just enough to get them mostly clean and shiny all over again, until they slide nicely up and down, like the valves on a trumpet.

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by caeruleus

How could I trim down the valve guides without filling the gallery with a zillion little bits of metal...?

Why would you want to?

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by caeruleus

Am I understanding right that the valve guides themselves can be tapped up higher into the block?

I don't think so, no.

Originally Posted by caeruleus

Isn't this kind of begging to deform the guide, and wind up with an even bigger set of hassles?

Hell yes, as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by caeruleus

But now I'm wondering if I can get the cam out without removing the crankshaft.

Yes. In fact, when completely disassembling the engine, you pull the camshaft first, before pulling the crankshaft.

Originally Posted by caeruleus

Which direction would it come out?

It comes out the rear of the engine - which requires you to remove the aft housing - i.e., the boxy cover over the reversing gear.

To see a complete tear-down and overhaul, with lots o' pictures, check out this thread - which is my engine that I tore down and overhauled back in 2011. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for the first of the pics showing the engine - which then continue on for many more pages, showing the whole dis-assembly process.

Originally Posted by caeruleus

And I'm assuming I may need a new camshaft seal pressed into the block afterwards, right?

No, there's no press-fit cam seal in the block. There is a little retainer held in by two small bolts. It's actually very easy to pull the cam out and put it back in - once you've disassembled the engine far enough to get at it.

Originally Posted by caeruleus

How does one put this engine on a stand?

With a bit of difficulty. I did it, but then after a short while, determined it wasn't worth the effort. You can put it on a dolly built of 2x4s and 2x6s or just on a stout bench and muscle it around and flip it over as needed.

[ILikeRust]

Here is a link showing the back end of the engine with the reversing gear housing cover removed.

The camshaft is the big gear on the left. Through the holes in the gear, you can just see the bracket and small bolts that retain it in the block. You unscrew those bolts and the cam shaft slides right out.

[Sony2000]

****2dogsnight and caeruleus****
The lifters will not come out with the adjusters still screwed into them. Unscrew the adjuster from the top of the lifter, when it is at the lowest point and remove it. Raise the lifter, and it will exit the hole.
Lifters deform on their sides near the bottom, from a lack of oil, and the cam shaft pushing it upwards experiencing a great resistance.
2dog, since many are seized, you may have rust.

[hanleyclifford]

Lifters develop a varnish like coating near the cam lobe which make them difficult to extract. Spinning helps. Avoid damaging the top with harsh tools.

[ndutton]

I'll not make any suggestion regarding valve work because I have never had the need and therefore never had the experience on an A-4 BUT

Originally Posted by Sony2000

Then with an oxy/acetalene torch, heat up until its red hot and pull it out by hammering upwards on the inserted rod.

Brother, I have huge problems with this as well as a few other things that have been suggested.

caeruleus, I beg you to call Don Moyer and ask him before proceeding. If you do, please remember he fields calls frequently and although he is generous with his time you should try to be brief. Yours is a simple question: which direction do the lifters come out? Nobody has removed and replaced more lifters than Don. Please report back, I'd like to hear what he has to say, probably others too.

[Sony2000]

Lifters in good condition rotate counterclockwise on their own. The art of milling the holes, rotates the lifter, while the engine is running.

[caeruleus]

OK, I think I've got this.

I have the engine sitting on a stand of 2x4s. While it's still sitting upright, I'll remove the valves so that the cam shaft will clear the lifters when I slide it out. (I'm not sure this step is necessary but it seems logical. Thoughts?)

Then, remove the bolts holding the cam in, and remove it through the aft side of the engine.

Then tap the sticky valve lifters down into the block (gently) with a hammer and a wooden drift.

Then flip the engine over, remove the bolts holding the oil pan on, remove the pan, and then ease out the lifters.

Clean the varnish off them, maybe a little 0000 steel wool, and hone out the valve lifter guides a little if there's any corrosion.

Lube valve guides with Mystery Oil or similar. Reinstall, making sure everything slides easy.

Replace gaskets as I put on the oil pan and the flywheel housing.

Continue to next problem.

Am I missing anything?

[hanleyclifford]

Sounds like you may as well take the thing down to bare block. I would get the crank out before the lifters. Forget reaming old valve guides unless you have access to oversize stem valves. Like Neil said, call Don; and I sure hope you already have your personal copy of the Moyer Marine Overhaul and Service Manual, available on this site.

[caeruleus]

Hanley - is there any advantage to taking out the crankshaft? Seems like several hours of work to save a few minutes. What am I missing?

And yeah, I have the Good Book on my bench.

Thanks-

[hanleyclifford]

If you have to drive out the lifters you will inevitably strike one against the crank. Of course precautions can be taken to insulate such possible damage. I just don't like the idea of the lifters plopping down into the pan. I would suggest turning the engine over first, take off the pan, and then pull the cam and lifters. Of course the valves should already be out. Be sure to check valve guide ID and valve stem OD for spec.

[2dogsnight]

After reading last night trough excellent ILikeRust thread about rebuilding A4 few years back...I see that there is no way to avoid dropping the oil pan to get the valve lifters out.......without adjusters there is no way to get the lifters out without damaging them ( need something to hold on to them to be able pull them up).....I still hope that simple cleanup will make them usable again....
....sooooo, as much as I wanted to do as little as possible - I am going to plan B - take the motor out of the boat and go trough it....after all: the goal here is to have reliable power source....in my case (motorboat) is the essence of it

[Ball Racing]

Originally Posted by Sony2000

Lifters deform on their sides near the bottom, from a lack of oil, and the cam shaft pushing it upwards experiencing a great resistance.

If you have oil in your engine, you will be oiling the lifters.
The lifter bores are not force feed, it's splash oil feed.
Most cams are ground on a very very very slight angle to add in the spinning of the lifter.

[Sony2000]

2Dogsnight, the only chemicals to disolve the varnish (thanks to hanley) on the lifters is a pure decarbonizer. Thus carburetor cleaner, and possibly brake cleaner or Seafoam in a spray. MMO is not agressive enough. Did you use carburetor cleaner?

[2dogsnight]

I didn't use carb cleaner yet ......I will try today.....don't have much hope that it will do anything....needs to get down to the bottom of the lifter.....but I guess better to try it than take everything apart.....

[Sony2000]

Oh yes, do soak and rotate them. That is your only problem, varnish.
It was hard understanding lifter problems in two engines at the same time.
Attack them with carb cleaner, and finish with Seafoam spray that has an oil mix which will not drip off overnight. Repeat daily for a week, and it should work well.

[caeruleus]

Any tricks on removing the cam shaft? I've searched a bit and haven't found anything. The manual says "the shaft can carefully be slid out of its 3 bearings." She's not budging easily. Tap it out with a drift from the front side?

[caeruleus]

OK, got it. I thought the end of the cam shaft was the bearing. Now I see.