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Old 05-19-2017, 09:27 PM
jkaiser77 jkaiser77 is offline
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Orange coloration in manifold

Just took off the exhaust manifold, and one of the chambers has a distinct orange coloration. All the other chambers are black.

I'd been having problems with excessive blow by, so I'm starting an overhaul. Wondering if this orange coloration offers any clues...

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Old 05-19-2017, 09:58 PM
Ken Rockwell Ken Rockwell is offline
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Someone used cheap sealant. Buy the stuff rated for 1200 degrees. But you have something bad that's causing it to turn to powder. Like a bad exhaust valve. And blow by is when you have bad rings or a warn piston. I doubt you would have orange powder if your pistons were worn out. You would have smoke pouring out of the valve cover.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:02 PM
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Looks like rust to me. I think you're getting water where it doesn't belong. I suggest a manifold pressure test is in order.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:54 PM
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Thanks for the quick response, Ken. Maybe the blow by is caused by worn rings on a different piston?

Regarding sealant, on P1-3 of the Moyer Manual, he says "I do not put any sealer on the manifold gasket unless I have some reason to fear a water leak around the base of the studs (like after installing a threaded bushing insert). In any case, I've never seen any need to put sealer on the manifold side of the gasket"

Thoughts?
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Looks like rust to me. I think you're getting water where it doesn't belong. I suggest a manifold pressure test is in order.
+ 1 Looks like water intrusion.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:40 AM
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Agree, it looks like rust.
Normally, I would have suspected water or vapor backing up from the exhaust, but that would start at #3, the closest to the exhaust, and this appears to be on #1, the farthest from the exhaust (unless you have a V-drive engine which usually connects the exhaust to the opposite end of the manifold).
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:47 PM
Ken Rockwell Ken Rockwell is offline
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I was talking about head gasket sealant. Only on the manifold if you couldn't mill it down. Maybe it is rust. I would think the rust would have some blackness on it. Sounds like you should do some kind of pressure test on the manifold. I figured water would end up in the back, unless your engine was tipped forward. Was it blowing any white, black, or blue smoke. Did you hear sizzling in the manifold after you shut off the engine? Tell us any and all symptoms, great post by the way, I hope it's not a hole in the manifold.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:22 PM
jkaiser77 jkaiser77 is offline
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Here are the symptoms, Ken, from my post last November. (Link below)

"Although the engine works, white smoke comes out the exhaust, oil pressure is low (Cruising 20psi, 5 - 10psi at idle), and smoke comes out the oil intake at higher speeds ... I did a compression check and all four cylinders are right around 100psi."

I don't remember hearing any sizzling from the manifold after shutting off the engine. To be honest, I wasn't expecting anything wrong with the manifold bc I was pretty sure my issue was the piston rings.

Maybe I have a new issue...

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9885
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:29 PM
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Thanks, edwardc. Correct, it's piston #1, furthest from the exhaust.

Question: You say piston 3 is closest to the exhaust. The firing order is 1-2-4-3, but the piston order is 1-2-3-4, right? That's how my pistons are lined up according to the numbers stamped on top of the pistons.

Also, the arrow stamped on top of the pistons is pointing towards the propeller, not the flywheel. That's correct, right?
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:37 PM
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FYI - This was the exterior of the manifold before I took it off. Note the orange coloration on the left circle, close to piston #1.

What ARE those circles btw?

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Old 05-20-2017, 09:45 PM
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That looks like nice fresh rust to me. Source of leak might be the manifold (pressure test) but I'd also take a look at the block near the #1 exhaust valve. This is the time of year for cracks in the block to magically 'appear'. Don't spend money fixing this until you're sure it's NOT the block.
Blowby = bad oil control rings: ie: the lower rings. Suspect they are badly worn and just going along for the ride. This is NOT inconsistent with good compression (upper two rings).
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkaiser77 View Post
What ARE those circles btw?
Those are core plugs, a necessary evil of the casting process.

edit:
Al's advice is spot on. Before proceeding you need to find the water source so your efforts are directed at the problem. If the head is still on the block the water jacket should be pressure tested separately and in addition to the manifold. Here's the equipment you need to perform the test:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10146
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-21-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:06 AM
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Ugh, I just took off the head. What steps should I take? Pressure test the manifold?

Given that my core plug is rusted, is there a chance that's the source of the leak?

According to Wikipedia:

"Core plugs can often be a source of leaks due to corrosion caused by cooling system water. Although modern antifreeze chemicals do not evaporate and may be considered "permanent", anti-corrosion additives gradually deplete and must be replenished. Failure to do this periodic maintenance accelerates corrosion of engine parts, and the thin metal core plugs are often the first components to start leaking."

Last edited by jkaiser77; 05-21-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:02 AM
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Core plug first
The leaking they're talking about is from the water jacket through a rusted steel core plug to the outside. It does not leak into the exhaust passage as your original picture indicated. Any Afourian worth his salt uses brass core plugs and they don't rust. Your seepage/rust at the plug appears to be around its rim rather than a plug breach, easily solved with replacement if the manifold tests successfully. No way does core plug seepage result in exhaust port water incursion.

Pressure testing
A pressure test of the manifold is indicated for sure. Expect a leak around the core plug but more important is a breach into the orange exhaust port. Any indication of leakage there and the manifold is done. I'm hoping the manifold is toast because the other possibility is worse, namely . . .

Since the head is off carefully inspect the block for a hairline crack in the area of the #1 exhaust valve. You could be getting cooling water into the exhaust that way too. Let's hope not.
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkaiser77 View Post
Thanks, edwardc. Correct, it's piston #1, furthest from the exhaust.

Question: You say piston 3 is closest to the exhaust. The firing order is 1-2-4-3, but the piston order is 1-2-3-4, right? That's how my pistons are lined up according to the numbers stamped on top of the pistons.
You are of course quite right. #4 is closest to the exhaust. I've got that 1-2-4-3 sequence so ingrained in my mind, it just came out without thinking about it.

My bad.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:11 PM
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How did the block look when you took the manifold off? Was there rust in the same area on the block?
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Old 05-21-2017, 09:30 PM
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Pressure test the exhaust manifold.
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:58 PM
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Here's a photo of the engine block. Some rust, but not as bad as the manifold. Didn't notice any hairline cracks in the block.

The internet tells me I can pour acetone in the exhaust manifold as an easy first test for leaks. Anyone tried this before?

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Old 05-22-2017, 02:33 PM
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I'm not sure why acetone would be any better than filling the manifold with water and looking for leaks into exhaust ports. The best thing to do, as previously mentioned, is to pressure test the manifold.

I'm hoping that the problem is with the manifold since most of the rust is in the manifold. It seems like if the block were cracked most of the rust would be in the block.
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:12 PM
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Apparently acetone is better at finding leaks.

"Water is 4 times as viscous (thick) as acetone and has a MUCH higher surface tension."

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...olds-for-leaks
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Old 05-22-2017, 03:27 PM
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There are three passageways inside the manifold: intake, exhaust and water. We are looking at the possibility of a crack or hole between the water and exhaust passageways in the immediate area of #1 and again, INSIDE the manifold. This is why modest air pressure makes for a good test, it doesn't require a visual inspection of areas you can't see anyway for pass or fail.

I'm sensing a reluctance to try the pressure test, not sure why.
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-22-2017 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:31 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkaiser77 View Post
"Water is 4 times as viscous (thick) as acetone and has a MUCH higher surface tension."
[
Water is less expensive than acetone and a lot less explosive. Water under pressure mimics the working environment of the manifold better.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:49 PM
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No reluctance to do a pressure test, Neil. Had some spare acetone so figured I'd try that simple test first. Don't have the equipment for the pressure test yet. Trying to limit my runs back and forth to the closest hardware store here in rural Maine.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:53 PM
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You can plug one end and just blow in the other for a real quick test!
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Old 05-22-2017, 05:22 PM
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You're burning water in cylinder one. That's the white smoke. But that cylinder should be clean so I think you might have a problem in the manifold. Also you would see where water was getting in, like a small line of rust. As for the pressure test, did you try putting one hand over the cooling port and blowing in the other. Sometimes tiny cracks open up when it heats up, I have a bad crossover pipe that dripps a little when it heats up then stops. If you have a tiny crack in the manifold, juat add air. Finding a crack in the block may require a machine shop. Rotate the crank so that exhaust valve is open. Look for any small lines of rust.
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