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  #1   IP: 209.232.226.99
Old 04-27-2018, 04:22 PM
S0ul$tice S0ul$tice is offline
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new ideas needed for troubleshooting unfamiliar motor

Looking for some insights and new ideas regarding a suite of issues we've been having on an atomic4 w/ no known history we inherented. Detailed most of our work history & troubleshooting below. Help save us from the temptation of tossing on an outboard.. pleeeeease!!

Too long? Didn't Read?
"professionally" installed motor has had increasing number of issues in course of 3 months/6 sails. 2 fateful sails punctuate: (1) sudden shut down after bypass left fully open by accident, wire on coil found unconnected, which was reconnected and engine hard started; (2) where engine stalled, steamed, & knocked.. had to paddle into slip after restarts stalled almost immediately

Original thought was overheating, causing steaming/paint chipping, found metal scaling pushed against t-stat housing (see attached photo).
Can't find a blockage, up until manifold (haven't looked in there yet).
2.5qts of dark, decent looking oil removed on oil change.. slight swirling discoloration, but no metal/no choco milk.
Rattling or knocking getting worse, faint when idling/increasing w/ throttle, flywheel visibly stutters, seems to diminish if wire pulled on plug3 (worse if pulled on plug1?).
IR readings show temps w/in normal range (90-140F), up until manifold exit which jumps to >350/400+ (before cooling down to 80F when expelled.



---Boat---
27’ 1976 O’Day, New to us, 2 previous owners that neither really sailed
RWC motor with no known history, was bought offline “rebuilt” & replaced existing a4 (likely hooked direclty up to existing/original exhaust set up)
motor was given to previous owner, who “didn’t last long in boat ownership"

---Sail History---
-PO had motor installed at boatyard; new prop/prop shaft installed; good compression (90-100+ in all cyls).. last line of invoice reads: “trouble running in boat; timing? alignment? fuel?” -PO sails 4+ hrs, before they shut the motor down for smoke/steam(?)
-Towed ashore by coast guard; timing “adjusted” on feel by someone else; PO $pooked & $ells boat
-We motorsailed it back 20nm to home port; w/o apparent issue.

handful of issue-free sails, aside from slight stalls changing gears,
Next few sails issues emerge..

--First --
(Bypass valve left open by accident)
Motors to sea fine, sail for 2 hours fine, starts up fine & motors 10-20min
Sudden involuntary shutdown on the water, no start & steam out of manifold/flame arrestor, plastic smell
crank no start w/ seacock open 5-10times, reconnect some wires on the coil (maybe melted lose?) and hard start before motor back to dock at v.Low RPMS;
first instance of audible rattle (1 cpt heard faint indication when pulling out slip), seems to originate closer to flywheel end

Changed plugs, inspected impeller & raw water system, no issue.
Ran in gear at slip for 30min, Bypass valve half closed, IR readings normal.. except at manifold exit, >350F
rattle/knock sound audible, less w/ wire pulled off 3rd cyl

—Second--
Go to sea, lots of crew, pups too, motor out the slip w/ stalling when gears change
Sail for 45-min, turn around for weather
Motor starts, runs poorly.. aggressively increasing knock-sound, steam in cabin,
Motor stalling & rattling loudly, pups spooked, hot at manifold exit
Full stall prevented by throttling up, limped into slip with one final stall/shutdown

Pull apart cooling system, t-stat removed, tested, and opening
Remove intense amount of scaling (large pieces included) that was slammed up against the passage bw t-stat housing and head (see attachment)



After a delay, we flushed FW extensively, bypass closed w/ FW running in Water Pump, out T-stat Hoses
Flushed clean water on 2nd 5gal bucket, magnet attracting exceptionally fine metal dust
Warm engine again w/ rattle/knock, warmer at manifold exit,
change oil.. 2.5 qts removed.. dark, decent-looking.. swirling discoloration? no metal on magnet; replaced w/ 3qts sae30
Compression test again, basically same numbers.. 100-100-90-95
Rattle/knock diminishes w/ wire pulled on cyl 3; intensifies w/ wire pulled on cyl 1.
Both of us feel the noise is more audible from forward portion of engine.. rather the aft end by cys 3&4/manifold exit

—Status--
Not really sure where to check next.. nearly about to toss a outboard on the back unless we get some good ideas
Motor turns over well, seemingly plenty exhaust water expelled w/ bypass 3/4 closed, but continues stalling when choke closed (i.e. leaner mixture), waiting on new fuel filters

Save us from the temptation of slapping on an outboard!!
Need ideas to troubleshoot next!!
We're ready to go sail!
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Last edited by S0ul$tice; 04-27-2018 at 06:02 PM.
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  #2   IP: 70.27.72.221
Old 04-28-2018, 10:30 AM
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Peter Peter is offline
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Welcome

Hi Soulstice,

Welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place for help.

Outboard - i too considered an outboard but after pricing one and the controls that would be required to operate it safely from the cockpit decided against it. In fact, I got my boat at what I felt was a very good price from the PO who injured himself while trying to install an outboard.

Basics

A4 requires fuel, air and spark to run.

The fact that your compression numbers are good is very encouraging. Suggests that the engine is basically sound internally. Also the oil seems to be coming out with no water and that too is encouraging.

NOTE - when trying to start a difficult engine, it is best to leave the raw water intake closed until it starts.

Firing order - your comments on removing the plug wires leads me to suggest your check the firing order. it is 1-2-4-3.

#1 on this forum is the cylinder closest to the flywheel. If the distributor is installed in the usual fashion, #1 on the distributor cap is the post farthest from the engine and the rotor moves in a clockwise direction so the wires should go on 1-2-4-3 running clockwise from the post farthest from the engine.

Also check that the distributor is secure. Since the boat is sort of running it would be reasonable to assume the the timing is at least close.

Wiring - it sounds like you should have a good look at your wiring. A complete re-qire kit can be purchased from our hosts at a modest cost - https://moyermarine.com/product/dc-c...4-ovel_01_394/

Do you have points or electronic ignition?

Cooling - do you know if you have thermostat installed? My guess is know as you have a bypass valve. Have you measured the cooling output? Hang a bucket under the exhaust and run for a minute and report back on the volume of coolant expelled

Fuel - drain the carburetor and see if you get nice clean fuel.

What type of fuel pump do you have? Mechanical or electrical? Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? It is a very useful diagnostic and is very cheap to install. Search forum for recommendations on type to buy.

Patience - as Dr Welby said, "Patients are a virtue." Sailing is supposed to be fun and it is way more fun if you are confident in the engine AND your ability to deal with any issues you might encounter on the water. My sailing season runs from June to end of October and it sounds like you have a much longer season than that. Let's get the engine sorted so you can have a fun safe season.

Are you a handy person with tools?

Again, welcome and I am sure others will chime in as you provide us with more information.

Sincerely,

Peter
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  #3   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 04-28-2018, 07:37 PM
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ndutton ndutton is offline
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I'll bet there isn't anything wrong that can't be resolved with thorough - and well overdue - maintenance. You likely have multiple issues going on so take care to avoid looking for a single magic bullet that fixes everything.

I recommend getting the Moyer Marine manual ASAP. With it and information on this forum you can perform the following. If anything seems intimidating, consider the topical MMI videos or ask away on the forum, or both. Plenty of help available.

Cooling system
  • Acid flush with the thermostat removed and the bypass valve closed. Following the flush remove the manifold elbows and the thermostat housing, clean out any rusticles that are stuck in them. After reassembly run the engine with the thermostat still removed and the bypass valve fully closed. This is the configuration for maximum cooling. Once you are confident the cooling system is clear the thermostat can be added.
  • Replace the raw water impeller. Probably needs it anyway.

Ignition system
  • DO NOT remove the distributor to do this work
  • Plugs (properly gapped) and wires (who knows how long it has been), rotor and distributor cap, points (also proper gap adjustment) and condenser if you have them.
  • Double check the firing order. You'd be surprised how often guys get it wrong.
  • Once the engine is running, set the timing.

Fuel system
  • Replace the filters
  • Rebuild the carburetor
  • Check the choke and it's control cable to be certain it closes completely.

With experienced hands all of this can be done in a single day. First time through expect it to take longer but when it's done you'll be good.
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Old 04-28-2018, 07:43 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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All the "rattling" rough running, and so on make me think that there is a timing problem. No, I don't know why the engine seems to run well at times.
Is the distributor being held firmly in place by the hold down bracket? What does the advance (under the distributor breaker plate) look like?
If there are continuing problems with hot running take the side plate off and have a look see at the cooling jacket.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:37 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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Wow! Sounds like your engine is giving you fits.
Thing that jumps out at me is the cooling issue. Keep in mind that high temps can cause the coil to shut down, looking like an electrical problem. Is your coil mounted on the block? Can you post a photo showing where you're seeing the high temps? I suspect some of that crud you scooped out has gone elsewhere and is causing problems. Places to look for blockage include any fittings in the cooling system (inlet of any fitting is a restriction) and the manifold, particularly the outlet. Individual components are easy to check for blockage by disconnecting them and blowing through them. Last place for blockage is internal to the block in the small water passages by the valves. But you said this engine was overhauled recently - should have cleaned those areas. Remove the thermostat, close the bypass, and get this baby running cool. You can always warm it up later if you want to - I've been running cool for 20 years!
On to timing/ignition. I don't think the 1-2-4-3 thing is your issue - as sometimes it runs OK. I'd definitely replace the distributor cap - sounds like the spark may be going other than to the intended plug. Is this issue temperature or humidity dependent?
Strongly advise against the outboard thing!
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:02 PM
S0ul$tice S0ul$tice is offline
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Hey all, WoW! thanks for the detailed replies and insight.
We'll be back to the boat this week and start on it. Oddly, I dreamt last night of the cooling problem and found the blockage. So maybe start there at the manifold exit fitting..

Other than that, I"m heading down the line on ignition & timing. Fairly certain plugs are wired in the correct order.

--Ignition--
Engine has points. While we're waiting ont he Moyer Manual, what's the procedure for cleaning this? Fine sandpaper b/w the surfaces..

What does the condenser's purpose?

Timing.. saw a video pointing out TDC by rotating flywheel so roll pin is vertical. Any other lessons learned on getting this right? I"m pretty mechanical, but timing system are new procedures for me. Trying to get up to speed ASAP.

How would you adjust timing while its running? Can you only advance timing? My plan was to hand crank the flywheel until the roll pin is vertical (cyl 1 = TDC) & then rotate the rotor & cap until it was in contact w/ point 1. Then start & voila.

Sounds like a distributer & coil are in place for our next Moyer order (as well as fuel filters).

Wuite stoked to get back down there. THanks for the energy, keep it coming!
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:17 PM
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CajunSpike CajunSpike is offline
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Just got a boat that was not running initially.
Once the engine did start, I just turned the distributor left and right till I found the spot where it ran the best, stopped at that point.
Nothing special other than using your ears for what sounds smoothest.
Since then, it starts with a flick of the key.
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:04 PM
S0ul$tice S0ul$tice is offline
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Dreamy CajunSpike.
Thats the kind of service I can count on
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:56 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S0ul$tice View Post
Engine has points. While we're waiting ont he Moyer Manual, what's the procedure for cleaning this? Fine sandpaper b/w the surfaces..
!
The correct tool is a points file. Available at your local auto parts store.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-02-2018, 12:08 AM
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I recommend checking your fuel tank for sludge (eg, water & crud) on the bottom of your tank in a newly unknown boat. I have a famous picture of the nearly 3/4 gallon of sludge I pumped out of the bottom of the gas tank of my 1967 Tartan 27's 20 gallon tank, just can't find it even though Neil Dutton was nice enough to send it to me not to long ago.
I even discovered that the fuel pick up tube in my gas tank is relatively high (just below 8 gallons iirc) which I suspect is the result of corrosion on the bottom of the pickup tube, where water/muck would concentrate. So I have a 20 gallon tank of which about 12 gallons is useable which is not good because all the heavier stuff (water, muck) fall to the bottom and are usually only stirred up by bad weather (tank gets shaken up with boat motion). Nice original Monel 20gal fuel tank though; I just need to replace the pick up tube which I have ready and other fittings.

I agree that you may have multiple issues but it is important to troubleshoot one issue at a time. Atomic 4 needs = clean gas + air + spark (+ timing) to run. Work on each of those variables separately?

Also I have personally experienced the coil overheating issue on a Tartan 34' once, where the A4 would stall out when hot, then 45 minutes later start right up and run for another hour or so before crapping out again. Fun sail; we still covered 50 miles that day with some motoring and drifting.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:28 PM
S0ul$tice S0ul$tice is offline
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Angry another shutdown.. flywheel will not rotate

Chiming back in here after some unfortunate news. In the worst case, we're looking for advice about dismounting and pulling the motor into the cabin and disassembling to diagnose why the flywheel cannot rotate (by hand, by socket, by breaker bar, and by starter). Read below for the full story

Some things on my mind:
1 - how heavy is the motor w/o accessories? We'll probably rig up some sort of pulley/come-along off the mast to bring the motor into the cabin onto some 2x4s.
2 - debating whether to pull the head vs. oil pan (which would involve inverting the motor) first
3 - any suggested additional mods in the name of reliability while motor is out (assuming we end up rebuilding, vs. installing an outboard)
4 - where should the sacrficial anodes be situated inside the motor, so I can inspect them?
5 - ANY SORT OF HOPE OR SUGGESTED TROUBLESHOOTING THAT COULD BE AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE CATASTROPHE I"M ASSUMING.. read on below for what happened this summer.


----------------------
Through the trouble-shooting identified here, we got the motor running well for the first half of summer. Adjusted valve clearances, cleaned the carb a few times, oiled cyls, reset timing, and changed the condenser (which made a HUGE difference).

At some point this past summer, we experienced another shutdown while the motor was running and we were tying up to our mooring. Motor had run/started well for the whole sail, but then shutdown suddenly (no sputter, etc.) & would not restart upon immediately trial. Bc we were at port, we decided to let it be and try it later.

Upon return, the motor would not turn over: it would crank for a second or so and then stop. Seemed like something obstructed the cranking.. as though something might have been rusted in place. We hand rotated the flywheel back a bit, before attempting to start the engine again.

It would not turn past the same point, and now remains in this position jammed. All attempts to rotate the flywheel have failed: hand rotation, breaker bar w/ socket fitting for flywheel, shorting the starter, etc. Now the gear of the starter is jammed into the teeth of the fly wheel.

We're fearing the worst, and are prepping to pull the motor once we get it towed back into the marina for the winter. Looking for other tips and experience as to what we can try. My weakest hope is that the starter has somehow become unaligned with the flywheel teeth and is obstructing motion.. seems unlikely.

I'll start disassembling accessories (starter, alternator, water pump, carb, fuel assembly) first to see if the flywheel can budge. After that I suppose I'll open the valve cover and inspect there.

But really worst/expected case (unless ya'll have a saving grace), is to hand pull the motor and begin disassembly to understand what is wrong. Perhaps more as a educational experience, than a true mechanical rebuild.

Last edited by S0ul$tice; 10-24-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 09:46 PM
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Old 10-25-2019, 09:12 AM
Marty Levenson Marty Levenson is offline
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starter

You might try removing the starter, and then see if the flywheel turns freely. Its easy to remove.
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Old 10-25-2019, 09:22 AM
Bratina Bratina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S0ul$tice View Post
Motor had run/started well for the whole sail, but then shutdown suddenly (no sputter, etc.) & would not restart upon immediately trial. Bc we were at port, we decided to let it be and try it later.
How's the oil? When you cranked no-start, was the raw water through hull closed? Is there a possibility that the engine flooded, and now the cylinders have rusted in place after the layup? If the oil is still clear and not milky then we can at least rule that one out.
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:13 PM
S0ul$tice S0ul$tice is offline
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Thanks for all the tips so far! Keep them coming please, I'll be working on this project most of November.

Will definitely remove starter asap.. only reason I haven't already is I broke my arm mountain biking and am just getting through recovery.

Re: oil. Oil is not milky and does not appear low. Have to check my log onboard, but we change the oil in Spring according to Moyer capacity specs.

We feel its unlikely the engine was flooded, been mostly careful w/ the thru-hull fitting.

Keep the ideas coming please!
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