#51
IP: 174.58.84.3
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Hanley, if I think about it, what the tubing is doing, is the same thing that a jacketed system is. if we take it to an extreme, we could solder around the coil, and seal the tubing into a water tight jacket. Then only the ends would need sealing. Water could be introduced, and poof, there you have a jacketed exhaust.
I dont think I would go that far, but it could be possible. The insulation is not necessary in t hat system. some sort of stand offs would need to be fabricated to keep the coil in position. I used 3/8 soft refrigeration tubing. think I paid 100 for the 110 feet. It bent pretty easily around some pvc. (almost typed PCV, whew!!). The larger tubing might be much more expensive and harder to work around that small diameter. With no insulation, even smaller tubing could be used. If one was going for this "magic jacket" a small size would be preferable. No water would actually pass thru the tubing. (maybe someone would say that we can use the tube as a jacket and a water heater, lol. just kidding.) I thought of presenting the idea to the forum, but it seemed so Rube Goldberg, I figured it to be a joke. Now I am thinking again. this is fun Last edited by romantic comedy; 03-07-2014 at 01:47 PM. |
#52
IP: 107.0.6.242
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What we have so far is a "dry" exchanger, in effect, but the antifreeze has to go thru the tube to make it effective unless you are trying for a "radiant" transfer which is exactly what we are trying to prevent. It's easy to bend the copper; the coil is wound around a pipe locked in a vise, the coil is then slipped over the wrapped (disconnected) hot section. If you are really skillful you wind it tight enough that it must be "unwound" slightly to slip it on and upon release clings to the wrapped hot section nicely.
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#53
IP: 174.58.84.3
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another quick thought. I think my coil was 4 inches ID. There were places where I had trouble getting it on the black pipe, with the bends.
I was looking at tubing benders, and they were for bigger coils. So I did it the best I could figure. |
#54
IP: 107.0.6.242
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No question, a tubing bender would be required but not a big nasty one like what I had to use to bend that 1" stainless for my pulpit - I think a bender like the plumbers and electricians use would be good for this type of job.
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#55
IP: 71.181.37.42
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Could the very small and highly flexible copper tubing that they use for
the refrigerator's water supply be used? We don't need to totally cool the black Iron, just get it to a manageable temperature. A proportional valve could be used to send some of the water thru it. Possible sizes, 1/4, 5/8, 1/2 inch? Could use more turns of a lower gauge that is easy to coil directly around black pipe without disassembly possibly? Regards Art |
#56
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Maybe you should have a conversation with these folks: http://www.coppertubecoils.com/
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#57
IP: 107.0.6.242
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This looks very close to what you need: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...thout-Crushin/
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#58
IP: 71.181.37.42
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A few thoughts have occurred to me:
How would the coil of tubing be kept from blocking up from salt water contaminants? What would be the minimum diameter that would allow acceptable flow and minimize blockage? How would the pipe be flushed out? IS IT POSSIBLE TO USE SOMETHING LIKE THE BRAIDED STAINLESS STEEL HOSES USED FOR HOME CLOTHES WASHER WATER SUPPLIES DIRECTLY- MINIMIZING OR ELIMINATING THE ISSUE OF COILING COPPER TUBING? IT WOULD BE OF SUFFICIENT DIAMETER TO ALLOW ADEQUATE COOLING AND BE EASILY WRAPPED IN SITU (SP?) AROUND THE BLACK IRON WITHOUT THE PITA OF UNTHREADING AND PROBABLE REBUILDING OF THE BLACK IRON PIPE. IT COULD BE EASILY CONNECTED WITH THREADED HOSE CONNECTIONS AND REMOVED QUICKLY AND EASILY FOR CLEANING OR REPLACEMENT? WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS GUYS? BEST REGARDS ART |
#59
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Hi Art - As Neil has pointed out, salt could plug a small copper tube sooner rather than later especially if the volume/velocity is low, and it will be since a diverter valve will be used. I think the coolant has to be antifreeze. The smallest ID I would consider is 1/4" but 3/8" would be way better. I don't know if the braided stainless line can take the temperatures involved here; perhaps some one else has used it this way. I don't think there is any easy fix for this, Art; you (and many others) are dealing with a fundamental design error. In your situation I would pull the section and start over building a hot section with it's own integral exchanger. You might even be able to get a patent - I've never seen one. Regards, Hanley
Last edited by hanleyclifford; 03-09-2014 at 11:08 AM. |
#60
IP: 71.181.37.42
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THanks Hanley
IS the intension of double walled ss exhaust pipe to be used with water or antifreeze? THe meshed Laundry hose handles hot water . Possible recirculate back to engine FWC system? |
#61
IP: 174.58.84.3
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I think that ss hose has rubber hose on the inside. That most likely would not take a lot of heat, but might take this application, since it is water/AF inside.
The cost would be more then having a real jacketed system fabricated, I am sure. probably about 4 dollars a foot. I used 110 feet..... I wonder is you could get a ss hose 100 foot long? lol It would be quite the challenge to wrap that around the exhaust while it is in place. I could see anti freeze used. I think it would not flow very much, due to the long length. There would need to be a second inlet to the heat exchanger to accept the flow. That part I am thinking about. |
#62
IP: 107.0.6.242
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#63
IP: 174.58.84.3
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maybe we can get a ss hose with a 2 inch or larger diameter. Then pull it over the black pipe, like a condom? And some systems are longer then others.
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#64
IP: 24.152.131.153
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I'm all for innovation, thinking outside the box as it were provided the solution doesn't become more risk prone and cumbersome than the problem it was trying to remedy in the first place. Some observations/thoughts:
About the braided stainless washing machine hoses, they're rubber on the inside.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#65
IP: 107.0.6.242
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If you think you need to run with your engine box off to mitigate the risk of fire on your boat, that to me is about as big a liability as I can imagine, the correction of which moves to first priority including doing whatever it takes to make that correction. When Neil speaks of weighing complexity/cost with benefits he clearly cannot be including safety in that analysis. Some things are absolutes on a boat; one of those is fire prevention.
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#66
IP: 24.152.131.153
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Hanley,
I'm all for safety but I discounted it only because of the considerable number of Tartans out there without a predisposition for fires (that I've heard of at least) whether they're caused by exhaust or not. If such fires were commonplace why would anyone even own a Tartan? Seems to me they do just fine with wrapped hot sections and tall standpipes. As mentioned in point 1 of my previous post, the heat sink coil strikes me as an enhancement to the existing configuration. But that's not really the point. As I recall, the desire was to place an automatic extinguishing system in the engine space and the concern was the ambient heat may trigger a false event. I think it was Ed who suggested installing fire ports as an alternative. Maybe air condition the engine space? Lots of boats have air conditioning.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#67
IP: 174.58.84.3
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Neil, ever since I fist got my Tartan 34, I felt that it had a potential to run way too hot. After looking thru many other Tartan 34s, I believe that this problem is the same with every one. At least the ones with the original exhaust set up.
Maybe i am being overly concerned. I think that when i touch a piece of wood cabinetry and I cant hold my hand on it, it is too hot to be safe. Since most boats are used for day sailing or at least short motoring, the problem has been ignored, or unnoticed. It is a problem that has not been adequately addressed among the Tartan crowd. When I motored any distance, I have kept the engine box open. On longer journeys I used fans blowing on the exhaust pipe. There is a real problem here. my tubing experiment is really just that, and experiment. The more I think about it, the more i think better air flow would be the way to go. |
#68
IP: 24.152.131.153
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I appreciate the concerns, I'd probably feel the same and want to make it better, completely understand.
If ventilation is to be the strategy my caution to have a method to shut the ventilation off immediately or even automatically in the case of fire is critical however. Of course I don't have a Tartan, never saw a Tartan but it seems to me since heat rises you may be trapping a super heated air pocket under the engine cover. Maybe providing an avenue for it to find its way up and out would be an improvement, a stove pipe of sorts. I bet the lower portion of the same engine cover is much cooler.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#69
IP: 71.181.37.42
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Impressive inputs guys.
Romantic - You are in a good position to try out the cooling system either on the existing pump or with salt water. Why not try either or both methods since you already have the tubing in place. Wet Solution Another thought - a number of years ago Tom Stevens removed his stack and dry exhaust and replaced it with a water lift muffler If I remember correctly, the " Pot" was installed in the space either below where the standpipe was or in the bottom of the adjacent Nav Station cavity on a shelf. The exhaust hose itself was no longer side exit at waterline, but hose traveled thru a triangular space running at ceiling level above the quarterberth to a transom exit I believe he still had dry pipe up to the " Pot" , but don't remember the details, although he shared some pics at the time. Dry Solution On a earlier occasion, Tom referred me to some Industrial "steampipe" like hard insulation which contained a powdered substance which i believe was called "calcimate" or something similar . It was simply sawed with a handsaw to make lengths and 45 degree elbows, then clamped and wired in place. The issue with this coating was that it shed powder continually, although the mfr also sells a spray on coating to prevent this. This was tried out by myself with a dry exhaust as a covering. It was ss wired and clamped on . I didn't stick with it , as I discovered the exhaust wrap solution. But it may have been a better solution to the dry exhaust w/o cooling. It probably better imitated the original Tartan design concept of using asbestos plaster as insulation. I still have a quantity of this stuff, but it is in a hard to access spot currently, but could be retrieved. BTW Romantic - In answer to your earlier post, I have ran numerous 24 hr constant runs up and down the New England cost with the engine cover removed. It does help, at least with the heat inside the engine box. Last edited by ArtJ; 03-10-2014 at 06:19 AM. |
#70
IP: 71.181.37.42
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Quote:
Do you know a source for this sticky insulation? My boat has some aluminum foil faced sticky insulation around the engine cover box. I would like to possibly add some around the hot section plywood area. Does it have aluminum facing? Best Regards Art |
#71
IP: 71.181.37.42
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Quote:
coast often exceeding 100 miles and have motored over 30 hrs at a time often. I leave the cover off the engine and run the blower constantly. Heat isn't a issue in the engine compartment. The plywood enclosure for the standpipe gets warm but no exceeding dangerous heat in all these years. Best Regards Art |
#72
IP: 100.0.185.21
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T34 that did have a fire!
Hi all - anyone still following this thread?
New owner of T34 #233, with rebuilt A4. As near as i can tell, the bilge blower burned, now replaced. The exhaust pipe wrap seems brand new (engibe rebuilt/installation last August. Picture of the exhaust system attached. There is no room for the blower out end to have a hose- i suspect this is to ventilate the stack? 1-why is the hot section so high? So long as it somewhat downhill to the thruhull couldnt it be 6-8 inches shorter? Less height, less heat? 2- how can i tell if the rebuilt A4 is Moyer Marine? 3 - considering expanding the cabinet an inch all around and lining with HeatShield mat. Or leaving it alone .... There must be a better design for this? Thank! Jack |
#73
IP: 107.0.6.242
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Wow. I would not tolerate an exhaust pipe that close to plywood on my boat.
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#74
IP: 174.58.84.3
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Jack. Maybe MMI has a record of the serial numbers of his rebuilt engines.
Your exhaust is much different the the original. I would not call it a standpipe at all. But I dont know what others might say. The original blower configuration had a partition between the intake blower hose and the exit. It went around the pipe and sealed the box so the exit would blow up and out. You can see my pictures on this thread. here are 2 more. BTW I am lost soul at the t 34 forum |
#75
IP: 100.0.185.21
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Thanks for the reply! The T34 site wouldnt take my phone pics easily.
My blower intake has a manifold to pull out air from below; the air out tho goes into the cabinet above the manifold; this manifold essentially blocks the lower end of the cabinet thus i presume the air goes mostly up and out as the cowling at the top would provide least resistance. Would give, as you note in the thread, some convective cooling, but need to run the blower full time. I have not run this enough to determine the operating temps in/around the cabinet. But i bet its high. Would be simple enough to enlarge the cabinet over the port bunk a couple inches and line the whole thing with heatshield. Jack |
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