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  #1   IP: 97.121.151.224
Old 04-16-2022, 07:54 PM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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No compression on 2-4. Water in oil. Next step?

Backstory below if you want it:
The current state is I don't have any compression on 2-4 and 60 psi on 1. I removed the valve cover and all of them appeared to move up and down when I manually turned the engine but this would be the first time I have ever looked at the value, guides, springs, etc... Is the next step to remove the head and see what the gasket looks like? In looking at two videos it looks like it is much easier if I replace the studs in the process, correct? In typing this out I realized that maybe I should have looked more carefully at what was moving. Maybe just the guide was moving and the valves are stuck.

2nd issue: There was water in the oil but my exhaust manifold is 100% dry, I really don't think I have had any water make it to the manifold as one of the freeze plugs is missing and water would have come out there, correct? Either water was already in the engine or it is coming in someplace else. I am 95% sure I check the oil before purchase and it didn't look anything like the sludge I have been pumping out. Could water be getting in through the water pump?

Backstory:
Silly purchase of a boat without seeing the engine run but we are beyond that now and learning a lot and trying to get her to run. She is on the hard and I made the mistake of turning the engine over too many times with water coming from a bucket and had water in the oil. Changed the oil three times so far but checked the compression today and found cylinders 2-4 have none.
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Old 04-16-2022, 10:54 PM
SbMolly SbMolly is offline
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I would try squirting a little oil into the guilty cylinders ( by removing the plugs) and then checking the compression again. If it improves, you have an issue with the rings - although with NO compression, seems very unlikely it’s worn rings. If the oils makes no difference, the problem is elsewhere - valves, head gasket or damage to the pistons or block.

Last edited by SbMolly; 04-16-2022 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 04-17-2022, 09:04 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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When you "looked" at the valve train moving did you check the valve clearance to be sure that they are seating? Sticky valves can go up and down and still not go "all the way down" to the closed position. The check is similar to setting the gap only your not adjusting yet!

You could do a simple pressure check of the block to check water jacket and gasket integrity as well.

Is there a chance of "freeze" damage where the boat is kept?

Did the P O give you any info on the engine at all.

The "freeze" plug will need to be replaced and a pressure check of the manifold to be sure it is not breeched internally.

SPARK should be a "snappy sounding and blue in color" and a weak spark will be a pale yellowish color.

Do you have any engine experience or is this new to you? It will help "us" in simplifying the processes one at a time. Most steps are simple once understood and take ONE at a time!

Dave Neptune
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Old 04-17-2022, 09:07 AM
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Before you pull the head make sure your valves are closing all the way. It would be much more likely to have 2 stuck valves causing 0 compression in 2 nonadjacent cylinders. It would have to be a very large head gasket failure in 2 separate spots. Also, I wouldn't pull the head just to check the gasket. Pulling the head means changing the gasket, and now you're heading down a rabbit hole. Next come the broken studs. If it gets to that, OK, but don't do it if you don't have to.
You said you removed the valve cover- watch the tappets as they push the valves up and down. Make sure the tappets are contacting the bottoms of the valves all the way through the cycle (except for the small amount of valve clearance when the valves seat. Check your clearances to make sure the valves are seating.
If you can determine that the valves are closing all the way, then I'd pressure test the block before pulling the head.
You're right to think that you flooded the cylinders with water when you repeatedly tried to start with the intake water valve open. That's easy to fix- just keep changing the oil.
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Old 04-17-2022, 09:10 AM
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Dave beat me to it.
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Old 04-17-2022, 09:52 AM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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To answer questions:
I need to go back and check the clearance to make sure the valves are indeed opening and closing.

Guaranteed there was a freeze, I don't know if damage was caused.

I would have to go back 2 POs to get any info on the engine running. They left the boat in the state it is now and the ignition wiring was fried and disconnected even though they told the 1 back PO that everything was good so I am going to go with any info I have from them is incorrect.

No real world engine experience.

Sounds like my next step is to measure the valve clearance but don't adjust anything.

Thanks all!
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Old 04-17-2022, 04:33 PM
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Correct. Check your valve clearances first and report back. Pressure test the block before you think of pulling the head- you can't do a pressure test once you pull the head and you will want that information to determine if there's a leak in the water jacket which needs to be addressed before putting the head back on if it becomes necessary to take it off. If you need instructions for the pressure test or anything else report back.
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Old 04-23-2022, 08:34 PM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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I went out to do a pressure test and I think I have a cracked block, see attached image.

Name:  20220423_123240.jpg
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Any point in pressure testing? I am confused on where to attach the plug and pressure gauge? Do you remove the hose tee? Do you have to pull the manifold to do that?

Thanks again for all you help.
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Old 04-24-2022, 07:40 AM
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That's concerning but I'd still do the test- what do you have to lose?
It's easiest to leave all the hoses attached so you can easily attach test fittings-
To test block only, take hose from water pump to T, remove it from water pump and attach a Shrader valve (you'll have to cobble a valve up with appropriate barbed fittings to attach it to the hose). Now remove the hose from thermostat to manifold at the manifold and insert a pressure gauge- you can get these in the pipe fittings section at HD for about $10. Again, you'll have to cobble together some barbed fitting to attach it to the hose.
Now just take a bike pump and pressurize the block. I think Moyer says to take it to 20 psi. If it holds pressure for several minutes you're OK.
To test just the manifold, remove hose from thermostat to manifold at the thermostat side and put the valve there. Remove hose from manifold to water injection fitting on exhaust at exhaust end and put your gauge there. Pressurize and see if it holds- you don't need as much pressure here- 10# is plenty.
If this is confusing, I can draw a picture and post it.
If you're missing a freeze plug you have to replace that first. Or use an expandable rubber plug to seal it temporarily.
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Last edited by msmith10; 04-24-2022 at 07:53 AM.
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  #10   IP: 97.121.151.224
Old 04-24-2022, 03:07 PM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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Thanks for clearing that up Mark. Tried to pressurize the water jacket and air came streaming out the crack so I think she is dead.

Is there any point in keeping the engine in the boat? Every solution I can see involves pulling it out but maybe I am missing something. Any tips on pulling the engine in particular with regards to attaching a chain or strap to the engine so it doesn't come off. I have done zero research on that as of right now so just asking silly questions to get started.

Thanks,
Brant
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Old 04-24-2022, 04:24 PM
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I usually use the lifting eye after removing the starter and manifold. Some on here do not like the lifting eye, I have never had an issue with it.
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Old 04-24-2022, 05:45 PM
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Sorry to hear that. I was hoping that wasn't a crack, but it didn't look good. You're right, any solution now requires removing the engine.
Do a search. Lots of photos of guys lifting the A4 out. Depends on your access, but rig block and tackle, using the boom as a crane, supported at the load point by your main halyard then swing the engine to the dock. Plywood on the cabin sole so you won't have fiberglass repairs to do after you slide the engine forward.
The big decision you have to make now is whether to look for a good used A4 or buy rebuilt or rebuild it yourself with a used block. And while you're looking at it, how is your fuel tank, the engine electricals, prop shaft, exhaust system? Guys have gotten block cracks repaired, but I probably wouldn't.
All depends on your budget, skills, and time. Personally, if I could find a good used engine from a freshwater source (lots of A4s still on the Great Lakes) for $3000 or less that's probably what I'd do, but I'm cheap, and I'm comfortable working on the A4. I'd want to see the engine and check it out (at a minimum a compression test and pressure testing) before buying, otherwise I'd probably go with a Moyer rebuild. It would be nice to know that after all the labor of pulling and replacing the engine, you've basically got a new engine. The other thing I'd think about since you're in that deep is a diesel conversion (I just committed an act of heresy), but that's by far the most expensive option both in parts and labor.
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  #13   IP: 209.6.152.28
Old 04-24-2022, 09:34 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
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Sorry to read compression test..engine removal plan...

Here is a video of my A4 removal from the Pearson 30 I salvaged and cut-down last year.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eYRq4F1hWmge71qv5

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eYRq4F1hWmge71qv5

Project constraints permitted me more removal latitude that you will have. : )

My goal is to convert this low hours engine to FWC for a repower on my boat someday. I may also use the motor as a study/test case for work and transition to FWC on my boat.

When I have researched and read the more routine engine removal process, it is very boat specific. I favor approaches that permit stripping the motor in place then pulling the block. Using boom and hoisting system through the cabin and companion way. Passing straps/chains under or around block. Protecting engine and all surfaces and having tackle that is over specified for the lift.

Even when being conservative, I learned a hard lesson slinging the 3500 pound lead keel from my salvage boat. I take no chances with heavy lift tackle and careful assistants. Have 2 friends help you.

Many decisions ahead for you. Plenty of boats with transom outboards, owner and Moyer rebuilt A4s, diesels, and electric motors. Wishing you discernment and return to sailing as soon as practicable. Where are you geographically? If you have a short sailing season like we do in New England; I would pull the engine ASAP, seal where needed, hang a outboard on the transom, then solve the inboard repower over the summer and start work in the fall. Until next. Stay well.
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Old 04-27-2022, 10:35 PM
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You've got two cracks in that block, second one further forward towards the flywheel. Afraid that block is a goner!
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Old 04-28-2022, 10:04 AM
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Sven, not sure of the financial situation but there are choices.
An electric trolling motor will get you in and out of the slip for sailing but with limited power and run time.
An OB on an up and down transom bracket will work better than the above and still give some cruising range and some minor "charging" of the batteries.
The above will get you going so you can slowly have at finding another A-4 for a drop in. The bracket can also store a "dinghy" motor in the future.

If doing the above I would first remove the prop due to it's drag, if you plan on sailing during the re-power process. When you start removing the engine just separate the shaft and lock in place with a 2-piece collar or hose clamp and the boat will function just fine as the shaft won't go anywhere .

What type of boat do you have? Many may have some good ideas for a particular boat.

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Old 04-28-2022, 10:37 AM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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I have a line on a used Atomic 4 that has not yet come out of the previous boat. They are doing an electric refit. It is coming out of an Islander 28.

Anything I should check on it when see it. It will still be running (it is running today) and I am doing/helping pull her out so that should help limit/eliminate damage from the removal.

I plan to check compression and pressure test the water jacket.

What items should I remove before transport? I planned to pull:
Carburetor
Alternator and bracket
Starter
Distributor (not sure on this one, would you just tape over the whole left after removal?)

I have an Irwin 28.

Thanks All!
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Old 04-28-2022, 10:58 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Gude gneus! Does the replacement motor run? If so and the oil has no water you should be good to go. I would check the compression if you can. Disconnect what is necessary to lift out of the boat. Starter, alt, carb, manifold ( it can be a good hand hold) and distributor (if necessary).
Drain the oil as if the engine is "tipped" forward oil will run out of the flywheel end as there is no seal!

Dave Neptune
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Old 04-28-2022, 12:30 PM
SvenTheGoose SvenTheGoose is offline
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Yes, the replacement motor runs and I will check that out on the hard before we start pulling it. I did have to check for water in the oil on my checklist as well, just forgot to type it here.
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