description/difficulty of FWC install?

[Michael Edwards]

Kurt,
thank you for persuading me to do this project right the first time! All that I found in the thermostat housing was black crud (no rust scale). Being black had me concerned. I'll also put a temporary strainer in-line.
Regards,
Michael

[ArtJ]

As long as you are going to flush, I strongly recommend the acid flush
with diluted muriatic acid (available at home centers). Following Don
Moyer"s flushing procedure in doing this will ensure that the block is cleaned thoroughly. MMI sells a inexpensive flushing kit with instructions which
includes all the hard to find fittings necessary to do this job.

Regards

Art

[hanleyclifford]

Before proceeding with removal of the water jacket side plate read some of the threads on the subject. I like Jerry's "water jacket side plate adventure". see member "roadnsky".

[msauntry]

I strongly recommend removing the side plate to dig out the crud in there. You'll never be able to flush some of those chunks out through the drain holes. I was amazed at how much came out when I did it.

A small magnet works great for getting some of the pieces out of the corners. I also blasted with a garden hose for a while to really stir things up in there.

[rigspelt]

I also recommend considering removing that side plate and, as Hanley advises, review the several great side plate threads on this forum before starting. Be well prepared before turning the first bolt, but I think it is an important step in restoring the cooling function of an old A4 with uncertain maintenance history.

While you've got the alternator and starter off, consider getting them serviced too.

[rigspelt]

Being black had me concerned.

I found non-oily black crud first time I opened up the thermostat housing on the then new-to-us A4, but accumulation of that stuff seems to be a natural state in old A4s that have not had full coolant chamber maintenance, judging by the numerous threads discussing it. Some think it is bacterial breakdown of carbonaceous material in a raw water-cooled engine, which kinda maybe makes sense to me (seawater and lakewater are protein soups), although I would have thought the heat would kill bacteria. In any case, I have never found a thread giving evidence that ordinary black crud indicates a problem in an A4 other than need for cleaning and flushing.

[Michael Edwards]

Members,
thank you all for all of the direction and advise. I have read the articles and experiences that you cited. Now I need to get the gasket & repair bolts. The scratches on my forearms are healing as are the busted knuckles; so its time to crawl back in there. I already have the acid.
I'll give an update in a week or so. I have to finish building a new companionway hatch before returning to the creek.
Michael

[JonnyQuest]

water jacket cleanout before or after acid flush?

Although I guess it just doubled this project for me, it appears to be preventative measures worth the trouble.

Question: clean out the water jacket before performing any acid/pressure flush or after?

[msauntry]

I'd guess do the acid flush before. Gives any chunks of stuff a chance to fall off, then you can scrape, pick, or blast it out.

Both my drain holes were completely clogged with a fine black sediment which I think is Chesapeake mud that is suspended in the raw water, then settles in the engine block where it solidified over time.

I used an awl, various screwdrivers, and a judiciously pointed garden hose blasting that crud out. Not to mention large metalic rusty flakes that had flaked off the inner surfaces. Don't worry when you see these. I think is it normal and there's usually plenty of metal left. It is these larger flakes and the mud sediment that the acid flush can't break down, nor can they pass through the small drain holes, so the only option is to open the access plate and scrape it out!

Good luck!
-Micah

[jstaff]

clean first

I would de-scale and muck out first.

That way the acid is working on your engine and not wasted.

[JonnyQuest]

Both responses!

I'm gonna guess that it would be a50/50 split on opinions of which to do first. I'll probably go with the acid flush first since I want to get a bit more ownership time in before I start unbolting things off a (seemingly) perfectly fine engine-- not wanting to tempt the fates here.

Plus it's cold right now and I don't really want to fiddle in an engine compartment all weekend long freezing my keester off!

Thanks for the input and Happy RamaHanuKwanzmas to everyone.

[CapeCodPiper]

Locating the FWC system fill tank

I have a Tartan 27 with a Type I A-4 (with an Iron pipe crossover and single Dole thermostat which actually one could live without if one doesn't mind running cooler water through the engine for a little longer than originally designed). The December Pin-up shows how the A-4 is located in the T-27, although that A-4 does not have fresh water cooling.

On the T-27 the A-4 sits under a cowling which also serves as the lower steps for the companionway. The good news is that when one removes the cowling the access to the engine is good. The bad news is that since the engine is actually away from any substantial fixed bulkhead (the panelling behind the engine is fine for electrical connections, but nothing substantial), there is no good place very close to the engine, with good overhead access to get to the fill cap, to locate a single unit FWC system.

I opted to go for a two part Sendure system with a MMI flywheel mounted water pump. The horizontal heat exchanger is now happily mounted buried under the cockpit close to the hull inflow seacock. I wanted to locate the overflow tank more centrally and prominently, so that I could easily access the "radiator cap". The tank I have is a cylinder tank about 10" long with two tabs underneath for mounting on some kind of rail.

I decided to mount the tank directly onto the engine, effectively on the exhaust manifold. I found a piece of aluminum (maybe an old cookie sheet) about 5" x 10". I drilled two holes to line up with the two outer Exhaust manifold mounting studs, and notched the aluminum plate to fit around the middle stud (with the air intake flanging it would be hard for the plate to fit flush to the manifold anyways.) I also notched the top of the plate so that the lower piping on the tank could fit, and drilled the plate to properly bolt to the tank tabs. Thus the plate was bolted to the manifold studs along with the manifold, and the tank bolted to rest on top of the plate.

The mount is wonderful except that the 2 mm plate is a bit flimsy. Tank stays where it is, but when horsing the cap on and off the tank can flop around a bit. To fix this, I drilled the plate for two 4" bolts on which I nutted oversized washers. The washers fit between the engine and manifold, providing a kind of hooking brace for the plate. Made it more stable. Worked great for number of years.

Last summer I found that ice had compromised the exhaust outflow seal on exhaust manifold. (Why an almost new 1967 A-4 should need a new exhaust manifold after only 44 years is hard to believe!) So off came the FWC tank and manifold, to be replaced by a new MMI manifold. The MMI is very nice indeed (good design and production work, Don et al!) but it does seem to require a tiny bit more stud to bolt on than the older casting (which probably has some hollowing at the stud holes). I WAS able to get the plate and stud nuts back on, but only with about 3-4 threads (3/4 of the nut) to hold everything on. This season I didn't bother to put the 4"ers back on, as that system did not seem too good.

I'd like to upgrade the mounting. I wonder with any Afourians have any ideas to help me. I would prefer to use a more robust SSteel plate rather than the flimsier aluminium plate, but I'm not sure how much more thickness the exhaust manifold studs can take. I probably could replace the Manifold studs with longer studs. But clearly we have more engine block studs (at least 4 on each side) which also seem a bit longer relative to the nuts than the 3 exhaust man. studs, so asking them to help out could be sensible. Maybe two angle irons stealing space from two engine block studs and then wrapping around the top of the exhaust manifold, bolted to a 10"x 2" piece of SS stock on the top of the side of the manifold to which the tank would be bolted, would be better. As the main force exerted is down on the cap to close and open it (pushing against the spring), the connected double "L" mounting bracket design might give enough strength. But adding thin strapping down to at least one Exhaust studs would not be hard, and would lock everything in nicely.

Any ideas here? Certainly designing a way to attach the coolant tank directly to the A-4 could be very helpful for Afourians with free-standing A-4s.

[ArtJ]

I have a Tartan 27 with a Type I A-4 (with an Iron pipe crossover and single Dole thermostat which actually one could live without if one doesn't mind running cooler water through the engine for a little longer than originally designed). The December Pin-up shows how the A-4 is located in the T-27, although that A-4 does not have fresh water cooling.

On the T-27 the A-4 sits under a cowling which also serves as the lower steps for the companionway. The good news is that when one removes the cowling the access to the engine is good. The bad news is that since the engine is actually away from any substantial fixed bulkhead (the panelling behind the engine is fine for electrical connections, but nothing substantial), there is no good place very close to the engine, with good overhead access to get to the fill cap, to locate a single unit FWC system.

I opted to go for a two part Sendure system with a MMI flywheel mounted water pump. The horizontal heat exchanger is now happily mounted buried under the cockpit close to the hull inflow seacock. I wanted to locate the overflow tank more centrally and prominently, so that I could easily access the "radiator cap". The tank I have is a cylinder tank about 10" long with two tabs underneath for mounting on some kind of rail.

I decided to mount the tank directly onto the engine, effectively on the exhaust manifold. I found a piece of aluminum (maybe an old cookie sheet) about 5" x 10". I drilled two holes to line up with the two outer Exhaust manifold mounting studs, and notched the aluminum plate to fit around the middle stud (with the air intake flanging it would be hard for the plate to fit flush to the manifold anyways.) I also notched the top of the plate so that the lower piping on the tank could fit, and drilled the plate to properly bolt to the tank tabs. Thus the plate was bolted to the manifold studs along with the manifold, and the tank bolted to rest on top of the plate.

The mount is wonderful except that the 2 mm plate is a bit flimsy. Tank stays where it is, but when horsing the cap on and off the tank can flop around a bit. To fix this, I drilled the plate for two 4" bolts on which I nutted oversized washers. The washers fit between the engine and manifold, providing a kind of hooking brace for the plate. Made it more stable. Worked great for number of years.

Last summer I found that ice had compromised the exhaust outflow seal on exhaust manifold. (Why an almost new 1967 A-4 should need a new exhaust manifold after only 44 years is hard to believe!) So off came the FWC tank and manifold, to be replaced by a new MMI manifold. The MMI is very nice indeed (good design and production work, Don et al!) but it does seem to require a tiny bit more stud to bolt on than the older casting (which probably has some hollowing at the stud holes). I WAS able to get the plate and stud nuts back on, but only with about 3-4 threads (3/4 of the nut) to hold everything on. This season I didn't bother to put the 4"ers back on, as that system did not seem too good.

I'd like to upgrade the mounting. I wonder with any Afourians have any ideas to help me. I would prefer to use a more robust SSteel plate rather than the flimsier aluminium plate, but I'm not sure how much more thickness the exhaust manifold studs can take. I probably could replace the Manifold studs with longer studs. But clearly we have more engine block studs (at least 4 on each side) which also seem a bit longer relative to the nuts than the 3 exhaust man. studs, so asking them to help out could be sensible. Maybe two angle irons stealing space from two engine block studs and then wrapping around the top of the exhaust manifold, bolted to a 10"x 2" piece of SS stock on the top of the side of the manifold to which the tank would be bolted, would be better. As the main force exerted is down on the cap to close and open it (pushing against the spring), the connected double "L" mounting bracket design might give enough strength. But adding thin strapping down to at least one Exhaust studs would not be hard, and would lock everything in nicely.

Any ideas here? Certainly designing a way to attach the coolant tank directly to the A-4 could be very helpful for Afourians with free-standing A-4s.

I am not sure, but I think you would like to attach the fresh water cooling
tank to the exhaust manifold. The original Universal freshwater cooling exchanger
did attach horizontally to two of the bolts holding the manifold in place.

I have one for my atomic 4 which has worked fine.
Check out the universal parts manual for a picture of one. I do not think
they are currently available anymore.

Regards

[CapeCodPiper]

Hi ArtJ

Thanks for the feedback on your experience mounting a FWC system on the engine.

I cannot lay my hand on my old Universal Catalogue, but I seem to remember in it a drawing of a FWC system very much like the Moyer system of a vertical heat exchanger with a small fill tank at the top: overall an upside down "L".
I can understand with a simple clamp bracket around the vertical part hanging on two of the manifold studs, the FWC could be hung on the manifold. This must be what you have.

This leads me to believe that I should stay with a some kind of bracket plate for the water tank hanging on the exhaust manifold studs. The studs have no trouble with the weight, etc of the quart or so of coolant in an aluminium cylinder. If I'm concerned that my plate is a bit flimsy as it needs to be thin enough to fit happily on the studs, I can always either replace/beef up the plate or add some kind of bracing to the plate. Probably with something like some "L" brackets or drilled strips from an aluminum ruler which I can get from the local hardware store, I can work up an easy and robust solution, probably without bothering more than one of the engine head studs.

When I get the new system fixed up I'll send along a photo for the archives to help others.

Thanks again,

David

[roadnsky]

...I cannot lay my hand on my old Universal Catalogue, but I seem to remember in it a drawing of a FWC system very much like the Moyer system of a vertical heat exchanger with a small fill tank at the top: overall an upside down "L".

David-
Is this the Universal Manual you're talking about?