Water in the oil

[ndutton]

Water pump seals.

[hanleyclifford]

The first thing to do is pressure test the engine cooling system with manifold still attached. If it does not hold 20 psi, then proceed to remove manifold from engine and test it separately.

[Whippet]

next steps

Did some more digging and found some advice from Don.

The 2nd one involving 1/4" steel plug is suspicious since my serial is 200,000 plus. Anyone else have this issue? how nasty is valve cover removal/replace?

I do plan to do the pressure test in (3)

Any other advice most welcome



1) (his first did involve water pump -- but mine is new MMI. so we have to assume water pump seals are off the list)

From Don:
2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed.

3) If no other cause can be found for water that continues to appear in your oil, we would have to suspect a crack in the lower part of the water jacket within the block. The easiest way to pressure test the block (without removing the head) is to first plug the outlet of the thermostat housing. Then remove the hose from the outlet of the water pump, and install a Schrader valve in the end of the hose, so that a standard bicycle tire pump with a built-in pressure gauge can be used for the test. A Schrader valve is the standard valve used on automobiles, and they are available at any auto parts store. The block should be able to hold 20 psi for an hour or more without a noticeable drop in pressure.

[sastanley]

Whippet,

I would do another compression test, and then pressure test the block per Don's instructions.

One step at a time and we'll slowly and definitievely eliminate components until we find the culprit.

[Mo]

Steve,
a) Did you happen to keep the old water pump and rebuild it...if so you can try it. Replacement parts can fail, just not likely, but it can happen.

b) How does your exhaust look for keeping water out of the engine. Have you had any hard start issues.

c) What do the plugs look like. Any sign of water or really clean. Look with a light in combustion chamber as well and see if one or two look cleaner than the others....of course, 3 and 4 are typically dirtier than 1 and 2...worth a look though.

I saw one C&C 27 with a shut off valve in the exhaust right past the mainifold...like inches away. I seem to remember it being on the ejection line that goes from the manifold to the hot exhaust...someone had that there for a reason???

[Whippet]

Next...

Thanks Shawn and Mo

No hard starts I recall. I did redo exhaust in spring with anti-siphon pretty high above waterline. I don't have prior water pump but gee, new MMI pump has less than 10 hrs on it. Plugs are clean. Runs fine after warm up. Oil level was just a touch high on dip stick

So tomorrow I head to boat yard with bike pump in hand to do pressure test

More later. Thanks.

[Sheermadness]

Grey sludge

Hi all, this is my first post! I am particularly interested in this issue as well.
I bought my engine used from a scrapper in Wilmington ca, I heard the engine run and all seemed fine, I was transporting the engine to the Bay Area to install in my ericson 29, the guy said he had to drain the oil before loading it into my SUV in case a tip over would spill the oil out the flywheel, so he opens it up and this nasty grey sludge comes out, when I remarked on that, he said not to worry he'd pressure washed the hell out of the engine some water must have gotten in....... Ok so I'm much wiser now. I think.
After my install, and some fresh oil, the engine ran well enough for perhaps 3 hours, eventually it bogged down and quit, refusing any coaxing to start. And this grey ooze in an unstoppable flow started filling my bilge.......eventually I got around to tackling that mess, and I pulled the engine, it's now in my garage.
I pulled the head , and it showed signs of a failed gasket between 3 and 4, had it mangafluxed, pressure tested, and skimmed 5 thousandths, it tested fine on all accounts! I had to replace some studs but got it retorqued, with a new gasket without any issues I did have a slightly stuck valve on number 4 but it snapped back into position with just a little persuasion.
Compression is 80 on number 1 and 2, and 79 on 3 and 4.
I took apart the carb and rebuilt it, took off the engine plate on the alternator side and cleaned out the cooling galleries, and pressure tested the water system, water pump by itself, ok. Engine to the thermostat outlet, ok. Exhaust manifold, ok.
And then the entire system all connected, using an air hose and pressure gauge it held 10psi without any loss for hours ( that's as high as my gauge goes).
Assuming I have fixed the leak, I have run the engine on my bench, perhaps a total of 1/2 hour now, it started up immediately, but only stays running at 1/2 choke, it will stall if I open it up; unless, I open the throttle, then the engine revs up startlingly fast, and I have to control the throttle very carefully. If I slow the engine to what I feel is a nice idle speed it gets very rough and stalls.
This happens with the trans in gear or neutral.
I've fiddled with the mixing screw without much if any response, from nearly all the way in to 3 turns out! Pulling the plugs ( motorcraft A22) as supplied by the scrapper, shows a fair amount of soot on 1,2,3, and surprisingly clean on 4. Looking at the oil, I can't be 100% sure there isn't some water in it, either from failure to get all the old gunk out, or an unresolved leak, it's very slight, if there is water in it.
I have an electric fuel pump, and electronic ignition (still has a ballast resistor)
New seals and impeller, in the water pump. And the motor as supplied doesn't have a thermostat, ( is that needed?) it's raw water cooled in the delta.
I guess that's the background info, what else do I check to ensure a sound leak free water system, and how do I fix the idling, choke, issue?
Thanks for reading this far!,,, any help will be much appreciated! Cheers!

[Mo]

Hi Dude,
So, you pressure tested the manifold as well....and it sounds like you pressure tested everything. Sounds like a carb problem right now. We could pick at this all day but I'd take the carb off and carefully take it apart. I realize you did that once but dirt from a dirty tank is the most common cause of fuel related problems on these engines. Using choke makes me think you have an air leak and that will either be via the gasket that joints both halves or through the throttle linkage when carb related. Other areas to check would be all fuel lines and ensure clamps are tight and no air leak. Another problem that requires choke is fuel starvation...so you may want to check that.
Sounds like could be an air leak or plugged jet...regardless, a can and brake clean and an air compressor should allow you to clean it up pretty good. Carefully separate both haves of the carb. Remove all jets and set them aside. Remove float pin and carefully lift out the float without bending it. Then the needle and seat...clean these with the jets. Once jets and float, needle etc removed spray the whole thing with brake clean and blow it out with compressed air.

A few things I do when dealing with carbs. When cleaning jets you can use a very small strand of wire and wiggle it around the opening...will help ensure you have the right diameter and knock off crud...don't ream the holes larger. Jets are removed, passages in carb clean and blow with compressed air...then clean jet...then re-install.

Usually no gasket cement required on the carb and secure both halves very snug with the screws. I then plug the throat with a rag and spray some brake clean in the other end...cover with hand and blow compressed air between thumb and hand...if there is a leak between the two halves you will see bubbles.

Put it back on the boat, change filter if in doubt...and try it again.

Hope that helps...it could be a few things but I'd try this first.

For the water in the oil. You have it in the garage correct? Did you change the oil 3 times. If so, there still may be some residual moisture that may show as bubbles or froth on the dipstick and sometimes around the filler cap. Once you get it running decent run in for about an hour in the garage if you can. At this time leave the oil filler cap off and moisture should evaporate and make it's way out the cap opening. This would be a good opportunity to shut it down every 5 minutes or so and see if your oil is looking worse or increasing in volume as well. You may see some smoke come out the oil cap vent as well with increase rpm...that would be pretty much normal blow-by for this engine.

[Whippet]

Could be worse

Sheermadness:

I appreciate your post. at least i see whatever source of my issue, is minor by comparison. i ran for about 10 hrs this summer -- and oil level only rose slightly -- certainly not enough to overflow into bilge.

I was at boat yesterday to attempt pressure test -- but only had bicycle valve available -- and that just didnt hold. So will return w proper auto valve and give it another go tomorrow. thanks

[JOHN COOKSON]

S.Madness
Is there a PVC valve on the engine? If so I'd block it off or disconnect it until you get the lean condition sorted out.

TRUE GRIT

[Whippet]

Good news, bad news

Hi Gents:

Ok. compression tests complete, first on the manifold, then on the block, and both seemed to hold 20 psi for 15 mins or so. (i stopped test then since no loss of pressure).

I thought there would be some measurement error since hooking up the test is a trial in itself with right set of valves, bike pumps, etc. (for the 5/8 manifold hose plug, i used a wine cork - no sacrifice is too great for the A4 so i was forced to drink the bottle). All held together fine. i even dunked bike valve in water to makes sure no bubbles.

Here is photo of contraption:




So good news, it looks like manifold and block are sound? Bad news, so now what?

1) as mentioned, water pump is brand new MMI with only a few hours
2) possible that the little steel plug that Don mentioned is the culprit, but wouldn't pressure test have caught that?
3) exhaust was rebuilt last winter, and water exhaust goes above waterline with mmi a/s valve at apex
4) dont think i had any hard starts this year -- maybe a few where i had to fire for 5 seconds 3 times -- and raw water was open. is that excessive?

As mentioned, water intrusion wasn't too bad, because level was only a tad high on dip stick. but milkshake oil all the same.

thanks for any next ideas

[Mo]

Steve,

I'd do the oil changes and fire up the engine at the dock...no sailing / healing. Run it for a couple of hours with the oil cap off and keep checking the oil every 10 minutes or so. The oil cap removed will help the moisture in there (after the oil changes) evaporate out of the engine. You need to see if it is still taking in water or has it stopped. If there is no further water incursion I'd be thinking exhaust as the culprit...if there is water incursion I'd be thinking water pump.

That's all I can think of for now.

[edwardc]

One oddball thought (I'm good at those ):

Is it possible that some deck leakage (say from a leaky scupper fitting) could run along the underside of the cockpit, or down the outside of a hose or wire, and drip right into the flame arrestor?

I know it's pretty unlikely, but with a clean pressure check of the manifold & block, it seems like the only other ways for water to get in are the intake or the exhaust!

[Whippet]

Next

Thanks Mo and Ed

The C&c is on the cradle and with cover. I have to find the water source to run it for extended period and will attempt to do so. Could be a looong hose is reqd. I'm not aware flame arrestor had water intrusion and there won't be any w winter cover

Wouldn't mind waiting until spring to fire it up. but I appreciate I better change oil a few more times to make sure water is out. I put more mmo in cylinders today

Thanks.

[Whippet]

suspicious

Hi

I noticed the attached stain that appears to be sourced from manifold stud. (look just below manifold and above valve cover)

Could this potentially be something related to water in oil? Any other concerns here?

A reminder that manifold passed a pressure test a few days back.

thanks