Alberg 35 hove to under bare poles?

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  • liveaboardL
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2014
    • 15

    Alberg 35 hove to under bare poles?

    Every boat acts differently in bad weather, and requires storm-tactics suited to that boat.
    Which tactics work best for the Alberg 35, and which don't?
    It has a long, high stern, so would this interfere with laying out a series drogue from the stern? Could it sink it, due to the Alberg's design?
    Anyone have experience using different techniques on the Alberg 35?

    How does she heave to with & without sails in heavy weather?
    Under what conditions is she likely to turn beam into the waves?

    Does that long, full keel keep her in proper alignment with the waves in tough weather? Does she require a storm jib?

    If there are A35 members in other groups, please ask around & let me know. I am not able to join most groups. Thanks.
  • Mo
    Afourian MVP
    • Jun 2007
    • 4519

    #2
    Originally posted by liveaboardL View Post
    Every boat acts differently in bad weather, and requires storm-tactics suited to that boat.
    Which tactics work best for the Alberg 35, and which don't?
    It has a long, high stern, so would this interfere with laying out a series drogue from the stern? Could it sink it, due to the Alberg's design?
    Anyone have experience using different techniques on the Alberg 35?

    How does she heave to with & without sails in heavy weather?
    Under what conditions is she likely to turn beam into the waves?

    Does that long, full keel keep her in proper alignment with the waves in tough weather? Does she require a storm jib?

    If there are A35 members in other groups, please ask around & let me know. I am not able to join most groups. Thanks.
    There is allot of discussion regarding old design vrs newer designed boats.

    Fred Rehse is a friend of mine and was out for a sail with me on my C&C30 just this past Saturday. He and his wife Ricki spent about 12 yrs as live-aboards, on an Alberg 37, after he retired as a Search and Rescue Helicopter Pilot. They sailed thousands and thousands of miles on Windspeil. His knowledge of the design and Albergs is perhaps one of the best you will get.

    They were between Halifax and Bermuda a number of years ago and weathered a tropical storm. As the storm was abating they were knocked over. I will let Fred tell you that story.

    Fred is a very quiet man, very meticulous, very smart, in his late 70's now and has had the boat since he was about 50 ... very knowledgeable of the Albergs.

    Just called Fred on the phone and he said there is a very active Alberg Assoc in the US and they have forums etc. He also gave me permission to pass on his phone number and email address. Sending you a private message with that OK.
    Last edited by Mo; 04-28-2014, 07:02 AM.
    Mo

    "Odyssey"
    1976 C&C 30 MKI

    The pessimist complains about the wind.
    The optimist expects it to change.
    The realist adjusts the sails.
    ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

    Comment

    • joe_db
      Afourian MVP
      • May 2009
      • 4535

      #3
      Generally boats do not heave-to under bare poles.
      How I do it on my boat is pretty easy - I just tack and don't release the jib sheet. Then on the new tack I out the helm hard to windward and the rudder tries to bring us up and the jib tries to hold the bow off the wind. The boat ends up balancing about 40-45 degrees off the wind and kind of just sitting there in one place.
      IMHO heaving-to is great thing to do if you want to make lunch, go to the head, make a repair, take a nap, work out a navigation problem, park someplace until daylight, or otherwise just need a break. IMHO it is not a great survival storm tactic. If you can heave-to you can sail the boat as well. Once things get to the "ultimate storm" category you won't have any sail up and lying to a sea anchor or running off towing a drogue are going to be your better choices.

      EDIT: Yes the Alberg 35 can sink. Like most ballasted sailboats, the lead in the keel is plenty to sink her. There are very few production monohull sailboats that will not sink. If this worries you, you can either add foam flotation sufficient to keep the boat floating or divide the boat into watertight compartments. Neither one is very easy and the first one takes up a ton of storage room. One trick that takes care of a lot of potential damage scenarios is to glass in under the V-berths to make that a watertight compartment. If you hit something, odds are the damage will be in the bow someplace
      Also note the importance of securing your hatches. My boat was been pretty much under water when my brother ran off a big wave faster than advisable and stuffed into the wave ahead of us at 15 knots while the one behind broke on the boat. At one point the dodger was all that was visible Well secured hatches kept the water outside and no harm was done.
      Last edited by joe_db; 04-28-2014, 08:17 AM.
      Joe Della Barba
      Coquina
      C&C 35 MK I
      Maryland USA

      Comment

      • msauntry
        • May 2008
        • 507

        #4
        I've had my A35 for almost a decade and sailed it from the Chesapeake to Virgin Islands and back. I was in waves big enough to surf down the face at 16kts. And this is not a surfing boat...

        Bare poles doesn't work. Tried it and couldn't steer. Kept up a 100 percent jib to keep steerage downwind for the conditions I was in. Your sailing technique is more important than the type of boat. Boat steers well even at high speeds down the face of waves. Once you know your boat, it can handle just about anything.

        If you had a specific question, let me know and I'll try to help. Generally its a great ocean boat, except for the limited tank range.

        Comment

        • jbsoukup
          Afourian MVP
          • Jan 2012
          • 148

          #5
          read "storm tactics" by Lin and Larry Pardy and I think you'll find some answers.
          sigpicjohn
          '77 catalina 30 #783
          the only way to be sure is to make sure

          Comment

          • Mo
            Afourian MVP
            • Jun 2007
            • 4519

            #6
            Fred and Ricki were in a Tropical Storm between Halifax and Bermuda. A wave came under the stern and she went end over end. Boat was closed up and all secured. Water came in through the vents like a fire hose and took out all the electronics...everything was wet. Didn't get dismasted although tore a sail to shreds. Dead reckon'd to Bermuda.

            There are advantages to each design but ask any racer and they want to be on something that can go fast and is maneuverable quick time. I know many with the same style (and Albergs as well) and was told they handle poorly in a bad stern sea...the helmsman is a very busy sailor.
            Last edited by Mo; 04-28-2014, 06:43 PM.
            Mo

            "Odyssey"
            1976 C&C 30 MKI

            The pessimist complains about the wind.
            The optimist expects it to change.
            The realist adjusts the sails.
            ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

            Comment

            • joe_db
              Afourian MVP
              • May 2009
              • 4535

              #7
              I can't speak to the Alberg, but a C&C 35 surfing down a 20 footer keeps the helmsan busy too! And smiling and whooping and shouting at the knotmeter

              The usual common wisdom is that full keel boats are happier slower and should have some kind of drogue device. Likewise for fin keel boats without enough crew to rotate helmsman frequently. An hour is a LOT in those conditions. Besides for the expensive purpose built ones, an old tire or two on some chain and a long line is the cheap way to do it
              Last edited by joe_db; 04-28-2014, 08:20 PM.
              Joe Della Barba
              Coquina
              C&C 35 MK I
              Maryland USA

              Comment

              • Mo
                Afourian MVP
                • Jun 2007
                • 4519

                #8
                A search is underway for a solo sailor out of Halifax who has not turned up in Bermuda as planned.


                I was at work in the Arctic when I heard Hue was missing. He kept the boat here in Eastern Passage where I live...about .5 mile from the house. I'd talked to him about a month before he left. He'd sailed around the world and had some rough times doing it. The boat was repaired after Hurricane Juan and he'd spent allot of time preparing for the next excursion.

                I remember telling him "Hue, you know there is no &^%king way that boat is coming back up with that canopy if she goes over...right"? He said he'd spent enough time in the hot sun and this was the trade off.

                No one knows what happened out there. Hue was 67 and in good a shape for his age as anyone could expect. My limited experience, compared to him, always left me tired and sore after solo sailing in a storm (I did 4 hrs in 45 kts once and that was very tiring in every respect)...my gut feeling is that he got hurt during the storm and couldn't handle the boat.

                Another: Good friends of mine as well.
                Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo!


                Bob and Bev are sailors that went to the Caribbean almost every year or two years. Another case of slow boat in rough seas, couldn't react fast enough and she got knocked down. Bev broke her arm and the guy they took as crew was shook up. Bob called for an evac for Bev but once the helo came she wouldn't go unless they all got off. US CG flew them to hospital in Yarmouth NS. Two days later Bob was on a fishing boat headed out to get Dads Dream...she had been taken in tow by USCG and ended up somewhere in Maine, I think. There is normally a duty to be paid to get the boat back but because he was forced to get off by the wife (and he was Ex Navy Cheif) they gave him back his boat....well maybe there was an exchange of rum. There were reports of Dad's Dream being dismasted etc...No, she was fine except the generator ( she has her own generator room and generator) came off it's mounts and hit the ceiling when she went upside down....I guess she rolled full 360 with the wave and kept her rig. These guys were in their late 60s or early 70's when this all happened.


                Another episode: Dads Dream came off her mooring (Riser broke) 2 years ago and I was one of the guys that rescued her then ... I drove her over and picked up Bob and he jumped on...I offered him the helm "here ya go Captn"...he laughed, told me to drive and went below and got me a drink...then we brought her to anchor. Underpowerd, hard to anchor because Bob didn't want to knot the chain and letting out too slowly...after a bit of that I let out the roar to get that chain off the &&^%ing boat...got it done...not even my boat. Had 40 kts or so on her if I remember correctly and what a job to keep her into the wind...just harbor fetch and no sea to speak of. Once anchored, she held fast until the storm passed.
                Last edited by Mo; 04-28-2014, 09:15 PM.
                Mo

                "Odyssey"
                1976 C&C 30 MKI

                The pessimist complains about the wind.
                The optimist expects it to change.
                The realist adjusts the sails.
                ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

                Comment

                • liveaboardL
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2014
                  • 15

                  #9
                  >How I do it on my boat is pretty easy - I just tack and don't release the jib sheet.
                  got it. I've done this before. This part's easy enough.

                  >"Then on the new tack I out the helm hard to windward and the rudder tries to bring us up and the jib tries to hold the bow off the wind."
                  I'm afraid I don't understand ANY of this. But, I'll try to rephrase it in my limited terminology & let me know if I'm right:
                  Then, on the new tack, you pull the rudder handle so the end of it points to leeward, making the tip of the under-water part of the rudder go to windward. Is that what you mean by outing the helm to windward?

                  "The rudder tries to bring you up."
                  So the rudder tries to point the boat into a forward sailing position, instead of a luffing-sail position, right?

                  "So, once the jib fills up w/ air at the right angle, it pushes the boat's angle into alignment with the wind, so the jib starts luffing, (then the rudder pushes it back & it goes back & forth repeatedly). Does that sound right?


                  >IMHO it is not a great survival storm tactic.
                  I've read different opinions on this. Some say it is. Some say it's not, and some say it depends on the model of boat. Do you have experience w/ a full-keel boat with a raised stern, like the A35?


                  > If you can heave-to you can sail the boat as well. Once things get to the "ultimate storm" category you won't have any sail up and lying to a sea anchor or running off towing a drogue are going to be your better choices.

                  But how the Alberg ha a thin, long, raised stern, unlike most boats. It's pretty, but I have to wonder how that would work with trailing a drogue.


                  >Also note the importance of securing your hatches.
                  My Alberg 35's cabin hatch doesn't lock closed. I'd imagine that a strong wave could just slide the top open without much resistance! Aren't most sailboat hatches like that? Should I install an inside lock so I can keep that from sliding open in a storm while I'm crawled under the table in a fetal position?

                  > My boat was been pretty much under water when my brother ran off a big wave faster than advisable and stuffed into the wave ahead of us at 15 knots while the one behind broke on the boat. At one point the dodger was all that was visible Well secured hatches kept the water outside and no harm was done.[/QUOTE]

                  Wow! You're lucky you didn't get washed overboard! He must have been holing onto that tiller tight! In a storm, I'd have to stuff the hole that the anchor chain goes into w/ a towel, & the head's vent hole, & the two hole's at the stern. What do they call those macoronni-shaped holes that stick out of the deck? I also read that the stock windows that came w/ the Alberg 35, the ones w/ the brass trim, need to be replaced. Maybe I'd put a shutter over it if it got bad.

                  I read that in the 1976.. or whatever year it was, fastnet race, many yachts were caught in a bad storm and many different tactics were tried w/ the various racing boats. One of the boats that survived was the Alberg 35, which went under bare polls, while the crew played cards in the cabin. Which is why I want to know from others who own an Alberg 35. Is there something about it's design that allowed it to do that? Just take down all sails and let it float? It's narrow, and has a long full keel, so, maybe it's shape lends it to align perfectly w/ the waves, unlike modern beamy boats.

                  I've heard that modern studies show that the modern beamy bleachbottle boat designs will survive a storm just as well as a skinny full keel, like this one, but, I'm not entirely convinced that whoever did such studies didn't have an agenda, or wasn't well funded by the modern boat manufacturers. You never can be too trusting in times like these when corporations rule & fund science and guides & sifts everything.

                  Comment

                  • liveaboardL
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2014
                    • 15

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Mo View Post
                    Fred and Ricki were in a Tropical Storm between Halifax and Bermuda. A wave came under the stern and she went end over end. Boat was closed up and all secured. Water came in through the vents like a fire hose and took out all the electronics...everything was wet. Didn't get dismasted although tore a sail to shreds. Dead reckon'd to Bermuda.

                    There are advantages to each design but ask any racer and they want to be on something that can go fast and is maneuverable quick time. I know many with the same style (and Albergs as well) and was told they handle poorly in a bad stern sea...the helmsman is a very busy sailor.
                    But I read that the full keel makes a protective slick, and as long as a boat can be kept in that slick, it's like being in a protective bubble, but you have to be able to aim your drogue & rudder to keep the slick behind you, cause if the wind changes direction and the slick is no longer protecting the boat form the waves coming up from behind the boat, that's not good.

                    So, lets say that doesn't work with the Alberg 35, and I'm stuck at the helm, steering the boat through a storm. What goals do I have while steering? This is what comes to mind: Don't sail into the wave in front of the boat, which means if the boat is heading too fast into that wave, I may have to steer so that the boat approaches the wave at an angle, & is therefore slower, even though it may expose the beam to the wave more. That could get tricky if the waves were close together and short.
                    Don't let the following waves poop the boat, so steer straight down the wave if that's happening, & keep momentum going so as to be moving when at the bottom of a trough.
                    Does all of this steering require a storm sail? I don't own one. I have a 180 genoa & a main, & there's another sail I think it's called a riding sail or something. I'm not really sure what it does (maybe keep the boat still when at anchor?), but it's not a storm sail. Which of these would be best to use in a bad storm? I'd have to take the roller furling jib down, or maybe reduce i to a small triangle by rolling it in.
                    I like the idea of using tires as a drogue.
                    Steering in a storm sounds scary singlehanding, cause storm usually last long enough to tire out one sailor, I'd imagine. I recall reading about how the Purdees just used a sea anchor or drogue to keep the boat in a slick and they'd check on it every few hours to make sure they were staying in the slick, but if something about this design in particular allowed it to survive in the fastnet race under bare poles, it may be a non issue with this boat in particular. For those who don't know, the Alberg 35 is an unusually elegant shaped boat. Its very beautiful, and is supposed to be able to sail itself. It tends to hobby-horse though, or so I've read.

                    Comment

                    • joe_db
                      Afourian MVP
                      • May 2009
                      • 4535

                      #11
                      Not quite sure where to start here.
                      The Alberg designs are pretty much the definition of a traditional seaworthy design. They are certainly capable offshore boats.

                      From your posts you seem rather new to boats and sailing. You just cannot learn to sail in a storm in open ocean on the internet. I would suggest you look into crewing on a local race boat and on some offshore passages. You can have a ton of fun and learn a lot

                      BTW - My hatches are modified to lock from the inside or outside. It was a requirement to do the Bermuda Race.
                      Last edited by joe_db; 04-28-2014, 09:38 PM.
                      Joe Della Barba
                      Coquina
                      C&C 35 MK I
                      Maryland USA

                      Comment

                      • Mo
                        Afourian MVP
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 4519

                        #12
                        Originally posted by liveaboardL View Post
                        But I read that the full keel makes a protective slick, and as long as a boat can be kept in that slick, it's like being in a protective bubble, but you have to be able to aim your drogue & rudder to keep the slick behind you, cause if the wind changes direction and the slick is no longer protecting the boat form the waves coming up from behind the boat, that's not good.

                        So, lets say that doesn't work with the Alberg 35, and I'm stuck at the helm, steering the boat through a storm. What goals do I have while steering? This is what comes to mind: Don't sail into the wave in front of the boat, which means if the boat is heading too fast into that wave, I may have to steer so that the boat approaches the wave at an angle, & is therefore slower, even though it may expose the beam to the wave more. That could get tricky if the waves were close together and short.
                        Don't let the following waves poop the boat, so steer straight down the wave if that's happening, & keep momentum going so as to be moving when at the bottom of a trough.
                        Does all of this steering require a storm sail? I don't own one. I have a 180 genoa & a main, & there's another sail I think it's called a riding sail or something. I'm not really sure what it does (maybe keep the boat still when at anchor?), but it's not a storm sail. Which of these would be best to use in a bad storm? I'd have to take the roller furling jib down, or maybe reduce i to a small triangle by rolling it in.
                        I like the idea of using tires as a drogue.
                        Steering in a storm sounds scary singlehanding, cause storm usually last long enough to tire out one sailor, I'd imagine. I recall reading about how the Purdees just used a sea anchor or drogue to keep the boat in a slick and they'd check on it every few hours to make sure they were staying in the slick, but if something about this design in particular allowed it to survive in the fastnet race under bare poles, it may be a non issue with this boat in particular. For those who don't know, the Alberg 35 is an unusually elegant shaped boat. Its very beautiful, and is supposed to be able to sail itself. It tends to hobby-horse though, or so I've read.
                        They all sail themselves in good weather. The Alberg 37 is a beautiful boat as well. They will all hold their own with a sea anchor...until it chaffs through (friends lost a Catamaran like that) Talk to Fred Rehse about sails you need. That 180 is big. I'm 52 and I generally keep a 100% jib...maybe in July when the winds are really light will I go larger. If you plan to be offshore you will want a storm jib. Fred's Alberg has a Baby Stay as well with a sail for it...it is properly anchored to the boat as well.

                        Al Short and his wife Michelle were nearly lost in a storm. https://csri.investinfo.lv/eri/LSC1R/869/ Lost both rudders and an engine off their Catamaran. They had sea anchors out and both chaffed through in the storm...then the boat was at the mercy of the sea. That's when they called a Mayday. Al got up the ladder easily but Michelle fell into the water. The Cat hit the ship and foundered immediately and Michelle got to the ladder and up. They went to Europe with their rescuers and flew back home.

                        All these boats I speak of are good buddies and they've been on mine for cocktails and I have theirs.
                        Mo

                        "Odyssey"
                        1976 C&C 30 MKI

                        The pessimist complains about the wind.
                        The optimist expects it to change.
                        The realist adjusts the sails.
                        ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

                        Comment

                        • Mo
                          Afourian MVP
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 4519

                          #13
                          Originally posted by joe_db View Post

                          BTW - My hatches are modified to lock from the inside or outside. It was a requirement to do the Bermuda Race.
                          Same here.
                          Mo

                          "Odyssey"
                          1976 C&C 30 MKI

                          The pessimist complains about the wind.
                          The optimist expects it to change.
                          The realist adjusts the sails.
                          ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

                          Comment

                          • ndutton
                            Afourian MVP
                            • May 2009
                            • 9777

                            #14
                            I was going to mention the Pardey's excellent treatment on heavy weather tactics but I see you're already aware. Know that heaving-to and lying to a drogue are two very different things intended to achieve the same goal.

                            There are many opinions on boat design and passagemaking including heavy weather characteristics. When voyaging was a dragon I felt I wanted to slay I decided to build a boat capable of the worst. The platform I started with was a Westsail 32 hull and deck from P&M Worldwide Yachts. The Westsail is a true blue water design based on early 1900's sailing lifeboats (Redningskoits) of the North Sea. At 32 feet on deck, 27 foot waterline, full keel and internal ballast she tips the scales at 24,000 lbs. dry, over twice the displacement of my Catalina 30 of similar length. The double ended design is known for its favorable performance in following seas. The Westsail 32 Satori was caught in the nor'easter known as "The Perfect Storm" and survived, albeit on her own after the captain and crew abandoned her.

                            I practice heaving-to, did so in my Westsail and in my current boat, a Catalina 30. I've been known to heave-to mid channel on the way to Catalina for a BBQ'ed lunch. It's a matter of balance stalling the sails and hull so she doesn't creep out of her windward slick. The full keel cutter rigged Westsail would heave-to solid as a rock and stay put, the fin keel sloop rigged C-30 is more finicky. Observing the slicks of a moderate displacement fin keel hull and a heavy displacement full keel, the Westsail's slick was massive in comparison.
                            Neil
                            1977 Catalina 30
                            San Pedro, California
                            prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                            Had my hands in a few others

                            Comment

                            • Mo
                              Afourian MVP
                              • Jun 2007
                              • 4519

                              #15
                              Have a look at the performance of the sailboats in this clip.
                              [YOUTUBE]FdXxNZcXN3I[/YOUTUBE]
                              Around minute 4:25 there's an example of a boat too slow to react...not as bad as it can get yet either! Mind you, the others are well crewed, there is something to be said for being able to get it on.
                              Mo

                              "Odyssey"
                              1976 C&C 30 MKI

                              The pessimist complains about the wind.
                              The optimist expects it to change.
                              The realist adjusts the sails.
                              ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

                              Comment

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