Moving fuel tank

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  • GregH
    Afourian MVP
    • Jun 2015
    • 598

    #16
    The tank is polyethylene, deck fill is polymer with built in vent for tank vent hose, typical fill hose connects the two.

    Deck fill meets the new CARB and EPA requirements of U.S.C.G. Safety Standards (July 31, 2011) for 40 CFR Parts 9, 60, 80 et al. Control of Diurnal Emissions From Nonroad Spark-Ignition Engines and Equipment

    Have not come across (yet) info on grounding this. Still going through the document from the link earlier. Have always read about grounding metal deck fills, but not polymer ones. There is no pre-existing grounding point in the deck fill.

    Thoughts?....

    From the USGS Fuel Systems pdf; "If the fuel tank deck fill fitting is nonmetallic, and nonconductive hose is used as a fill pipe, there is
    no need for grounding the fill fitting. "(pg. 86)

    But I will still have to run a ground from the fill spud/fitting as it is metal.
    Last edited by GregH; 10-25-2017, 08:55 PM. Reason: New info.
    Greg
    1975 Alberg 30
    sigpic

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    • lat 64
      Afourian MVP
      • Oct 2008
      • 1994

      #17
      The concern is a spark from static electricity. Same as when you fill plastic gas jugs at a gas pump(set them on the ground to discharge any static charge).
      Here, it is essentially; a ground wire from deck fill fitting to tank fitting and then to boat ground network. The gas gauge sender needs a ground also to function(and safety too).
      I found a person's blog that studied this quite well:
      I have a permanently-mounted 25-gallon roto-molded plastic gas tank for my outboard motor. Gas sloshing in a tank (even a plastic one) can generate static electricity. Gas flowing from a fill hose …


      I hope you get an employee discount

      Russ
      sigpic Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

      "Since when is napping doing nothing?"

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      • Hymodyne
        • Feb 2013
        • 393

        #18
        the tank in the Triton was held in place with wooden chocks at the base, and two spars of teak glassed to hull and inside of cockpit wall across the top.

        James

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        • ndutton
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2009
          • 9777

          #19
          Originally posted by lat 64 View Post
          Here, it is essentially; a ground wire from deck fill fitting to tank fitting and then to boat ground network. The gas gauge sender needs a ground also to function(and safety too)
          10 gauge minimum for this grounding system, green wire color.
          Neil
          1977 Catalina 30
          San Pedro, California
          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
          Had my hands in a few others

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          • GregH
            Afourian MVP
            • Jun 2015
            • 598

            #20
            So how do people secure their fuel tanks? The Scepter permanent fuel tank does not have any attachment points for hold downs.
            Greg
            1975 Alberg 30
            sigpic

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            • lat 64
              Afourian MVP
              • Oct 2008
              • 1994

              #21
              Ask your warehouse for this:


              I used a surplus 2-inch wide lifting strap form the smoke jumpers and some "D" rings. I'm quite sure it's nylon.

              Whatever you do, make it over-built. Nothing too-strong ever broke, and a fuel tank is the last thing you want to come loose in a slop.

              So, this is interesting. I found this on the Moeller site:
              PERMEATION
              Permeation is a natural phenomenon of gasoline in a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank.
              Permeation is the result of gasoline fumes escaping from the fuel tank, not the loss of liquid fuel.
              Several precautions need to be addressed when using a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank:
              Fuel (gasoline) vapors settle to the lowest point in the compartment, therefore, a means for removing the fumes is required. See ABYC Standards Section H-2 for specifics.
              A covered boat will not allow these fumes to escape, so build up of these fumes is inevitable. Caution should be taken when a boats fuel tank contains fuel and is covered for an extended period of time. A boat cover should never cover the fuel tanks exterior vent fitting(s).
              Fuel vapors will migrate to any compartment open to the fuel tank. The smell of fuel vapors does not necessarily mean that there is a leak in the fuel tank, but a closer inspection should be performed.
              Fuel vapors may be absorbed by other objects located in compartments where fuel vapor may migrate. Following the above precautions, a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank will provide years of service.
              Last edited by lat 64; 10-26-2017, 10:27 PM.
              sigpic Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

              "Since when is napping doing nothing?"

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              • GregH
                Afourian MVP
                • Jun 2015
                • 598

                #22
                Morning!

                I put an inquiry into our supplier yesterday for that item matter as fact Lat 64. So we'll see what time frame and $$ is for it.

                Learn something new about this biz everyday! fumes through the tank - good to know.
                Greg
                1975 Alberg 30
                sigpic

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                • lat 64
                  Afourian MVP
                  • Oct 2008
                  • 1994

                  #23
                  Originally posted by GregH View Post
                  Morning!

                  I put an inquiry into our supplier yesterday for that item matter as fact Lat 64. So we'll see what time frame and $$ is for it.

                  Learn something new about this biz everyday! fumes through the tank - good to know.
                  Ha! I love helping people spend their money.

                  A story.
                  In 2005 I bought a Catalina 22 in Washington state. It had a nice new-ish yamaha 4hp and the standard plastic portable gas tank. I used the boat a little in Puget sound before towing it to Alaska. It always had a gas smell. Even when I left the tank up on deck. Camping on it was not pleasant because of the fumes.

                  I could not find any leaks anywhere.

                  After using up all the gas from Washington, I filled up with Alaska gas. No more smells. EVER! I belive the Wash. gas had more light volatile compounds than Ak. gas. I thought it was going right through the tank. Now I'm sure of it.
                  Our gas up here is much more stable too. No booze in it to absorb water. I routinely ignore to use stabilizer or any special efforts to preserve the gas in all the yard machines. I do expressly try to keep it dry though.

                  Remember, what Dave Barry says: "Water is bad for boats".
                  sigpic Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

                  "Since when is napping doing nothing?"

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                  • Whippet
                    Afourian MVP
                    • May 2012
                    • 280

                    #24
                    Moeller option

                    Assume you guys are aware of large range of Moeller tanks. They have relative simple tie downs available using an indent in tank.

                    I installed one about 5 years back and has been great. Just transparent enough that you can visually check fuel level.

                    Steve
                    Etobicoke YC, C&C27
                    A4 #204381, 1980

                    Comment

                    • tac
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 210

                      #25
                      Canadian Construction Standards

                      The Canadians among us are probably tired of seeing references to USCG requirements and standards. The Canadian equivalent is: Transport Canada, “Small Vessel Regulations, Construction Standards for Small vessels TP1332E”.

                      It can be found at:

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                      • joseph miller
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 30

                        #26
                        hello,

                        i have just about finished a 4 year rebuild on a Grampian 30.
                        it had what looked like an identical fuel tank. Canadian made about the same era.

                        i threw it in the dumpster and went with a new Moeller tank and all new fuel fill and carb hoses.


                        one thing brought up during insurance survey was that the tank should be grounded from fill indicator to engine. i used plastic deck fill so i supose the only way to ground that would be with the SS hose clamp.

                        Joe

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                        • ndutton
                          Afourian MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 9777

                          #27
                          A couple of reactions Joe,
                          • Standards agencies tend to hang onto old requirements long after new and improved technologies are developed, particularly in the area of grounding. The redundancy of ELCI and AC/DC bond requirements is an example.
                          • Your idea of grounding the clamp at the fill plate is probably the best you can do. Plastics can hold a static charge pretty well.
                          Neil
                          1977 Catalina 30
                          San Pedro, California
                          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                          Had my hands in a few others

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                          • JOHN COOKSON
                            Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 3501

                            #28
                            Once a year I use an ohm meter to be sure the tank is electricity connected to ground.

                            TRUE GRIT

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                            • ndutton
                              Afourian MVP
                              • May 2009
                              • 9777

                              #29
                              Russ's information about cross linked poly tanks being permeable was new information to me. I always figured I'd go poly if my aluminum tanks ever developed leaks but pending further research, tank permeability on my gasoline powered boat is a deal breaker.

                              Time for some research and testing
                              This news reinforces the importance of keeping water out of metallic fuel tanks, even stainless that undergoes metallurgic changes at the welds. Avoidance of corrosion driven pinhole leaks will prolong the life of metallic tanks indefinitely. Despite our best efforts water often finds its way in so how can we mitigate that easily and efficiently? I'm brainstorming a periodic pure ethanol rinse. The knock on ethanol is that it combines and holds water, why not take advantage of that property? Pump out all the gas possible, pour in a gallon of pure ethanol and then pump that out. Whatever water may have been in the tank will be removed with the ethanol and I believe whatever residual ethanol remains would be insignificant and certainly a better residue for the tank than water.

                              It looks like pure ethanol is available at roughly $20/gallon but if it's shown to be effective it's seems like chump change compared to tank replacement.
                              Neil
                              1977 Catalina 30
                              San Pedro, California
                              prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                              Had my hands in a few others

                              Comment

                              • GregH
                                Afourian MVP
                                • Jun 2015
                                • 598

                                #30
                                Originally posted by joseph miller View Post
                                hello,

                                one thing brought up during insurance survey was that the tank should be grounded from fill indicator to engine. i used plastic deck fill so i supose the only way to ground that would be with the SS hose clamp.

                                Joe
                                Congrats in The rebuild!

                                I have a "plastic" deck fill as well and will be grounding via the deck mounting bolts and a properly crimped ring connector. The regs mention not to ground by sticking the wire between the hose and the fill for a compression connection. I feel the hose clamps would be the same thing.
                                Greg
                                1975 Alberg 30
                                sigpic

                                Comment

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