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Old 12-05-2016, 03:20 PM
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Question Dueling batteries

My new 1979 Pearson28 has lost battery charge several times underway in the past year. Usually engine would die, but I could restart her with the 2nd battery. Replaced points with electronic ignition, replaced ammeter with voltmeter, and found charging at 12.5 volts. Recently ordered and installed new 55amp alternator from Mr. Moyer. Charging then at 16 volts

The last time we took off in the James River it was a perfect day of sailing, until starting home. Getting late so started the Atomic 4 to motor sail back. Engine quit (dead battery) but 2nd battery dead also.
Found water in both batteries was low (?empty) . (Need to replace both West Marine size 24 860 amp dual use batteries)

Can (should) I replace with one deep cycle and 1starting battery, or do they need to be alike (e.g. Dual use). Marina does not stock 'dual use' batteries. Have permanently connectet 120 vac shore power battery charger. All advice will be appreciated
Thank you, Matt,s dad in Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Old 12-05-2016, 04:32 PM
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12.5 volts is not charging at all. Ruins batteries.
16 volts is massively overcharging. Ruins batteries.
Some photos and diagrams of what you have set up would help a lot
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:19 PM
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Joe called it. Taking your voltages at face value, replacing the batteries will damage the new ones too. Charging voltage should be in the neighborhood of 14 volts or so.
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Old 12-05-2016, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts Dad View Post
...Recently ordered and installed new 55amp alternator from Mr. Moyer. Charging then at 16 volts
So, with the NEW alt installed, you now have 16 volts measured?

Quote:
The last time we took off in the James River it was a perfect day of sailing, until starting home. Getting late so started the Atomic 4 to motor sail back. Engine quit (dead battery) but 2nd battery dead also.
Is this episode AFTER installing the new 55A alt?

Quote:
Can (should) I replace with one deep cycle and 1starting battery, or do they need to be alike (e.g. Dual use). Marina does not stock 'dual use' batteries. Have permanently connectet 120 vac shore power battery charger. All advice will be appreciated
Short answer: yes

Question: WHAT is your battery charging/maintenance setup?
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Old 12-05-2016, 08:07 PM
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Also charging at 16 volts will most likely fry the coil with the new electronic ignition.
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:57 PM
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Do you have the Moyer 1 wire 55 amp alternator from their catalog?
You either have a wiring issue of some kind (likely) including perhaps a bad regulator or there may be a tiny chance someone got confused and shipped a 16 volt alternator. These do exist, some race cars use 16 volt alternators and batteries believe it or not.

Last edited by joe_db; 12-06-2016 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 12-08-2016, 02:29 PM
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I have read numerous 'battery' threads and messages since first submitting request for help, including online book on batteries and charging. Boat D.C. Appears to be much more complicated than car.
Thank you all. (I will respond more from a pc.)
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:31 PM
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OTOH that is pretty much a car alternator and any alternator shop and many auto parts stores should be able to test it
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts Dad View Post
Boat D.C. Appears to be much more complicated than car.
Only because the internet 'experts' want you to think it is.
Examples:
Do you need an Automatic Charging Relay (ACR)? No.
Do you need a manually adjustable regulator? No.
Do you need a Smart Regulator with three stage charging profile? No.
Do you need a battery monitor? No.
Do you need a Balmar hairpin wound alternator? No.
Do you need a serpentine belt kit? No.
Yet these internet gurus keep saying you do. I just listed maybe $4,000.00 worth of gear (uninstalled prices) that you can have if you want but none of it is a necessity for a functioning system.
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:10 PM
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Neil, what type of regulator do you recommend?
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:58 PM
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I'm perfectly happy with my Delco 10Si internally regulated single wire alternator. When I bought it the output was too high for my taste (14.7V) so I had the internal regulator replaced with (IIRC) a 14.0V by the local marine alternator shop. My 10Si is an automotive alternator marinized to meet J1171 Ignition Protection standard. It's performance has been so good that I bought a spare, had the shop do a regulator-ectomy again and added an AC tap for my tach. It's brand new sitting in the spares locker (on the stbd side for you Catalina 30 owners).

I have no ACR (prefer to use battery switches), no battery monitor (trust the system to tend itself in the background) and I get excellent battery performance and longevity with this setup. My last house battery bank lasted 10 years. I currently have four house batteries in two banks and one dedicated engine starter. My shore power battery charger is an old (read: not Smart) NewMar ABC12-25.

Earlier this year I added a 100W flexible solar panel with a dual bank controller. I do not have enough time on it to report one way or another. It is intended to help with refrigeration loads when away from the dock. We'll see.

I will not say this is what everyone should do, only that it has worked well for me.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:54 PM
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did you get 16v with a handheld meter? like a fluke meter? or the faulty volt meter ammeter you had?
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:45 AM
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Thank you all. It is such an encouragement to find so many offering help, and to Moyer Marine for supporting this for us all. My experience with electronics and marine electrics is limited. I have had dead battery issues underway since buying the Pearson 28 last year (she is my first cruiser and first inboard). Installation of voltage gage this fall finally provided some status of charging system and showed existing alternator charging was only 12.5 volts DC).
Although not the smartest approach, my efforts to correct this issue have been replacement of various ignition parts with new parts from Moyer Marine (new coil, new electronic ignition, new alternator MMI 55 amp AGI, new ammeter and voltage meter). New batteries were next.

May I address several comments in the thread?

All,
Where applicable, please advise manufacturer and type of batteries that have given you good service. I want to replace ruined West Marine Dual Purpose category 24 wet type with (affordable) better batteries. Golf cart batteries have been recommended by several folks in various books and forums.

----- ----- -----

Neil (ndutton),
Thank you for clarification that charging system will function as designed without addition of expensive new smart electronic components.
However, I observe wiring that could not have been performed by Pearson 37 years ago, especially the 120V AC house wiring, with zip lamp-cord wires, no GFI protection, wire ends and butt joints twisted together and taped... .
Please advise manufacturer and type of batteries that served you 10 years.

Joe,
I will take the new MMI 55 amp alternator to an auto supply shop and have it tested.
I prepared a rough sketch partial electrical schematic for ignition system. Will attach after scanning (or may need to email it). Briefly, I have 2 ruined batteries, wired in parallel; each battery is segregated by the selector switch (1, BOTH, 2, OFF) in cabin. Curly-que wire from alternator is run to “+” terminal on coil. Have a photo, but do not know how to reduce memory size so cannot attach.

Roadnsky:
My battery charging/maintenance setup is checking ignition wiring and cleaning bat terminals in Spring; batteries are charged at the pier with 120 volt shore power.
After adding voltage meter this summer and replacing alternator with new MMI 55 amp alt, voltage meter gage read about 14 volts at idle, and nearly pegged at 16.5 volts at higher engine RPM. Neither old nor new ammeter gages function. The last time boat was out (after replacing alternator) both batteries died. Subsequent investigation showed both wet type batteries were dry (West Marine 12 volt dual, wet lead acid type cat 24).

Romantic comedy
– Thanks. I do not know how to check if new coil and electronic ignition have been fried by 16 volt charging, except to replace parts.

Best regards,
Ronnie (Matts Dad)
Pearson 28 in Virginia
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Old 12-09-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts Dad View Post
I do not know how to check if new coil and electronic ignition have been fried by 16 volt charging, except to replace parts.
Ronnie (Matts Dad)
Pearson 28 in Virginia
Once you get a working battery, pull the center lead from the coil out of the distributor cap and hold it near ground (the engine) and turn the engine with the starter. A blue-white 1/2" arc is good.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 12-09-2016, 03:31 PM
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My original batteries were Powertron Gr 31's from Powertron Battery in Santa Ana, CA. My current batteries are (4) Duracell® Gr 31 Marine from Sam's Club for my house banks
http://www.samsclub.com/sams/duracel...to:product:1:3
and (1) Gr 24 maintenance free automotive battery from NAPA for my dedicated engine starter.

Two thoughts on your reply:
  1. With this boat you're either going to become well versed in electrical or find someone who is and likes to sail in trade. Based on your description your boat is in dire need of a complete rewire and the sooner the better. There are several on this forum who can help. Here's an example of where you are and where you want to be electrical-wise from a project a few years ago by forum member Systemek. The electrical work took a single day start to finish. Yeah, that's the same engine in the same boat.

    Name:  Ezra's before and after pictures.jpg
Views: 697
Size:  206.6 KB


  2. I would not trust the results of an auto parts store alternator test. I once had a truck alternator tested by Auto Zone, they pronounced it healthy but in truth it was a dead duck. I have a one strike policy with such things so from then on it was a marine alternator specialist for me.
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-28-2016 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:15 PM
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I have done pretty well with most of that technology for WAY less than $4,000
ACR - works great, I think maybe $140 off FleaBay.
Manually adjustable regulator - works great, it was a free extra in a Balmar shipment.
Smart Regulator - may get one, doing OK with the manual one changing between winter and summer settings by hand so far.
Battery Monitor - I like mine. About $60 total in Fleabay parts + $16 more for a Hall effect alternator output meter I just got off Amazon.
Balmar - I passed on the $$$ brand, got a 120 amp 10Si marine unit off Fleabay for about $80, and rewired it for positive field external regulation for free.
Serpentine belt - not sure how I could use that if I tried?
Hall Effect meter on Amazon is $16 and goes around the wire:

]
Fleabay meters:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Only because the internet 'experts' want you to think it is.
Examples:
Do you need an Automatic Charging Relay (ACR)? No.
Do you need a manually adjustable regulator? No.
Do you need a Smart Regulator with three stage charging profile? No.
Do you need a battery monitor? No.
Do you need a Balmar hairpin wound alternator? No.
Do you need a serpentine belt kit? No.
Yet these internet gurus keep saying you do. I just listed maybe $4,000.00 worth of gear (uninstalled prices) that you can have if you want but none of it is a necessity for a functioning system.

Last edited by joe_db; 12-09-2016 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:51 PM
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ACR @ $140 as reported
Smart regulator @ $400
Brand name monitor @ $265
Balmar hairpin wound alternator @ $1900
Marine serpentine belt kit @ $545
As listed - $3250 and not one bit of it needed for a functioning and reliable system.

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't have all the bells and whistles if you want. Ronnie confessed his electrical experience was limited and mentioned how complicated on board DC systems seem to be based on his reading. All I did was present the other side of the subject counter to the internet expert recommendations. I can get two new sails for under $3250 or have a fancy charging system to replace my basic system that already charges my batteries just fine.

Complications beyond a basic automotive battery and charging system that ARE necessary:
  • More than one battery
  • Ignition protected battery switch
  • Ignition protection for the alternator
. . . . and that's about it. It does not have to be complicated to work but it certainly can be if you want.

P.S.
I didn't make up the expert list. It was actually recommended on another forum by a very popular professional marine electrician including the serpentine belt kit. Why not present the other, simpler side also? I think we all know why not.

P.P.S.
The comment I've often made that drives the ACR camp apoplectic is I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch. In fact, there's a bit of hypocrisy here. Those who have all the battery monitoring gauges and sensors (volts, amps, temperature, SOC and whatever else) to be totally immersed in what is going on in real time with their batts and charging system are often the ones who prefer an ACR and let it automatically make the decision on which banks to charge and when without their involvement at all. They gather up all this information yet sit back and let the system do whatever it will do anyway.

P.P.P.S.
As long as your credit card is out, the Balmar Series 98 - 310 amp marine alternator can be had from West Marine for $3128.00 bringing the system total to $4478.00. Who wouldn't want the best system possible?? Mr. Marine Electrician would love for you to think that way. I mean, if you don't go for the best you're foolish and probably won't make it home from Catalina without problems, right? You don't want any problems, do you? And so it goes.
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-10-2016 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:19 PM
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Neil,
I intend to work on the 120 vac wiring after determining appropriate components, but want to fix her to run first.
Just received book thru Amazon "Sailboat Electrics Simplified" by Don Casey, and hope it also helps. The ignition and battery switch are original equipment, so would they likely be ignition protected components? Thank you. Ronnie
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:29 PM
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Casey's treatments are highly regarded so you're good. It's reasonable to expect the original ignition and battery switch are ignition protected so you're good there too.

Please don't be bashful about asking advice on this forum. The guys here offer good advice generated from a wide range of experience and are willing to help any way they can. That can't be said of any other sailboat related forum on the internet that I know of. You're in a good place for the tasks ahead.
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts Dad View Post
..Just received book thru Amazon "Sailboat Electrics Simplified" by Don Casey, and hope it also helps....
Also highly recommended is Nigel Caulder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual", available on Amazon. The chapter on batteries alone is worth the price of the book (IMHO).
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:51 PM
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I can do what the ACR does manually. If the thing dies I would do just that until I got around to fixing it.
Most people cannot do so because very few boats now and no older boats came wired that way. An ACR or equivalent switching is not the same at all as a 1-2-All switch.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post

P.P.S.
The comment I've often made that drives the ACR camp apoplectic is I've never understood what is so difficult about turning a battery switch. In fact, there's a bit of hypocrisy here. Those who have all the battery monitoring gauges and sensors (volts, amps, temperature, SOC and whatever else) to be totally immersed in what is going on in real time with their batts and charging system are often the ones who prefer an ACR and let it automatically make the decision on which banks to charge and when without their involvement at all. They gather up all this information yet sit back and let the system do whatever it will do anyway.
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Old 12-10-2016, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
An ACR or equivalent switching is not the same at all as a 1-2-All switch.
OK, I'll bite. What would an ACR do for me that I cannot do with my two 1-2-All switches? With them I can draw from any of three banks independently or in any combination, same with charging with either the shore power charger or the alternator. The only limitation due to how I've run the cabling is the anchor windlass draws from House Bank 2 or in any combination including House Bank 2.

It is hard to see in the drawing but the battery switch terminal orientation is 1=8 O'clock, 2=4 O'clock and Common=12 O'clock
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-11-2016 at 12:21 PM. Reason: updated drawing
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:09 PM
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You need to show your alternator wiring before I could answer for sure.
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:22 PM
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Alternator output is a single cable to the starter post, Engine battery switch (the one on the left in the drawing) common attaches to the same starter post.
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Old 12-11-2016, 04:20 PM
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Here is my setup:
Normally the engine starts from the engine battery and the house loads run off the house battery. The alternator feeds the house battery directly and when the voltage rises to the ACR set-point the engine battery is connected and charges as well.
Solar and shore power charging feed the house battery directly and I can set the combiner to charge the engine start battery too or not as I wish.
If someone leaves all the lights on and plays with all their electronic toys (can you tell teenagers are aboard ) or otherwise runs the house dead, all that needs doing is starting the engine.
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