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Old 01-17-2014, 12:57 AM
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What would cause 'dimpling' on the engine block face?

I'm attempting to bring the 'seized' A4 back to life in my recently purchased Catalina 30. I considered starting a 'build thread' but I hate to add duplicate info and there seems to be some superb ones already out there. To the issue at hand: After pulling the head, scraping the block (carefully) to remove the old head gasket material, I noticed that the surface of the block is 'dimpled' between the cylinder and the valves on #4, #3, and #2 getting progressively smoother toward the front of the block. #1 has almost no 'dimpling.'
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My three-part question:
1. Why?
2. Is this condition acceptable?
3. I realize the port-side, rear stud at some point was broken and re-threaded. Could this be a contributing factor? i.e. Water seepage.

If this has been addressed before I apologize but I couldn't find anything relevant and as always thanks for any responses gents!
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:31 AM
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I was unclear what you meant by dimples. This is what I see:
you have some rust pitting between valves and cylinders—not life threatening.

The head seems to have been surfaced by a broach-cutter style milling machine. That's the tiny wavy lines I see in the surface at the lower left. IMHO this is the best way to cut a head gasket surface.

I think it's savable, but it should be dismantled carefully. Go slow and let us see it along the way. The valve seats should be examined for rust pitting. If they are, then a bit of attention there and dress them as per you favorite machinist's recommendation.


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Old 01-17-2014, 09:31 AM
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Cat 30.

We have a bunch of those guys here. They'll brief you regarding the exhaust system and the potential for water intrusion which might explain those dimples towards the lower end.

Bill

Last edited by Administrator; 01-17-2014 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Cat, not Cal. Sorry for the typo.
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Old 01-17-2014, 09:53 AM
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I agree that there appears to be some water seepage between head and block but I don't regard that as serious unless the head or block is warped at the surface. Of far greater importance is the condition of the cylinders standing in the cooling jacket. Since you did not pressure test the block and manifold before disassembly you will have to rely on your machine shop for that information. Like Russ said, proceed carefully with disassembly labelling valves and lifters to make sure they eventually get back to their original holes if OK.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:15 AM
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It's starting to add up

I'm certain the surface condition is due to water incursion through the exhaust. Here are the reasons why:
  • The block surface damage is limited to the area of the combustion chamber. Tells me the head gasket was intact and doing its job.
  • The damage worsens toward the rear of the engine. That's the low end and naturally where the water would enter first.
  • You have a Catalina 30. The Catalina 30 has one of the most challenging and marginal exhaust systems known to man.
Here are some suggestions to minimize the risk of future incursion:
  1. Redesign the exhaust hot section so immediately after the manifold outlet it rises vertically as high as the galley cabinetry will allow. Pay special attention to heat shielding in the area.
  2. Locate the water injection fitting as close as possible to the waterlift muffler on the downhill leg of the hot section.
  3. Use a vented loop at the top of the raw water injection hose rather than an anti-siphon valve. The vent never needs maintenance, service or inspection. It always works.
  4. Adjust your carburetor a little rich so the engine starts instantly, even cold with the application of full choke. Hard starting with the sea intake valve open is virtually a guaranty of water incursion in the C-30. Having a second start button in the engine compartment (IMPORTANT - must be ignition protected) allows you to start the engine with the valve closed, then open it as soon as she fires. It's a little hard on the impeller but the alternative (risk of water incursion) is far worse.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:04 PM
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You would be wise to pay particular attention to that rear stud hole, which appears to have been Helicoiled in the past. It is also possible that the pits in the deck surface are left over from the previous repair.
Tom
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
You would be wise to pay particular attention to that rear stud hole, which appears to have been Helicoiled in the past. It is also possible that the pits in the deck surface are left over from the previous repair.
Tom
Agreed. The rust looks polished from the last cleaning.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:50 PM
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Thanks guys for the responses! I started the thread while drinking beers at 10pm and had a response by the time I finished my morning coffee. This has to be one of the best forums I've been on. Anyway..

Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
This is what I see:
you have some rust pitting between valves and cylinders—not life threatening.
Thanks Lat. You nailed it. The rust pitting is definitely what I was concerned about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I'm certain the surface condition is due to water incursion through the exhaust. Here are the reasons why:
  • The block surface damage is limited to the area of the combustion chamber. Tells me the head gasket was intact and doing its job.
  • The damage worsens toward the rear of the engine. That's the low end and naturally where the water would enter first.
  • You have a Catalina 30. The Catalina 30 has one of the most challenging and marginal exhaust systems known to man.
Here are some suggestions to minimize the risk of future incursion:
  1. Redesign the exhaust hot section so immediately after the manifold outlet it rises vertically as high as the galley cabinetry will allow. Pay special attention to heat shielding in the area.
  2. Locate the water injection fitting as close as possible to the waterlift muffler on the downhill leg of the hot section.
  3. Use a vented loop at the top of the raw water injection hose rather than an anti-siphon valve. The vent never needs maintenance, service or inspection. It always works.
  4. Adjust your carburetor a little rich so the engine starts instantly, even cold with the application of full choke. Hard starting with the sea intake valve open is virtually a guaranty of water incursion in the C-30. Having a second start button in the engine compartment (IMPORTANT - must be ignition protected) allows you to start the engine with the valve closed, then open it as soon as she fires. It's a little hard on the impeller but the alternative (risk of water incursion) is far worse.
ndutton I'm inclined to agree with your diagnosis. I took a few more pics to try and fill in the gaps on this puzzle. I think the pitting shows better in this pic:
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Here's a shot of the old exhaust hot section setup from the previous owner. I just set it back in place for illustrative purposes (ignore the vice grips on the reversing gear lever, hopefully that won't become another thread). Instead of running the exhaust up and back down he just had a "90" and to compensate for the misalignment with the muffler he used a flexible piece. I don't know jack about squat of the A4 yet but even I know better. I'll be fabricating a new hot section.Name:  rsz_img_1687.jpg
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and another angle with the water injection fitting
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Last but not least I'm almost embarrassed to pose this question with all of the "blocked cooling passage" threads here but after scraping the gasket material off of the head it seems that a couple of the cooling passages are so clogged they've become petrified. I tried breaking through with a pick but I'm afraid to go further until I'm 100% sure those "phantom" holes are in fact cooling passages and I'm not damaging a perfectly good head. They line up with the holes on the block but I'm just a dumb Polack and I need some verification.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:39 PM
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Launchpad, that hot section looks eerily familiar to the one I found in my C-30.

I have some before and after pics which illustrate Neil's suggestions. We'll help you get it situated. I bought some of that self-adhesive aluminum faced firewall stuff ($25) and put it under the galley countertop to disperse heat.

before



rough mockup #1



mockup in the boat #2



#3 - same exhaust wrapped -no galley installed on my C-30 in this pic. Once the clearance is identified, it is much easier to do the work with the galley removed. You can always lay a simple piece of plywood down to simulate the galley clearance during this project.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:02 AM
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Leave those "phantom holes" alone; they are from an earlier design but the holes are still in the block. You're good on that. Actually your hot section while minimal IMO is not in and of itself responsible for the water intrusion. The water intrusion was more likely caused by bad starting protocol re the raw water intake valve. Still, I would do a new hot section (no galvanized, please). With risers higher is better and inject lower than what I see in the pic. Neil and Shawn have both been thru this with Cat 30s. Thanks for those excellent pictures.
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Old 01-18-2014, 09:03 PM
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We've mentioned the C-30 exhaust limitations on the forum many times before but haven't really delved into doomsday stories.

So how marginal is it? Consider this: Unless the hot section is fabricated as good as can be, it's possible to have residual water from the muffler find its way into the engine simply by going on port tack and that's not an exaggeration.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:31 AM
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I've heard before not to use galvanized for the hot section. but I don't know why.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:32 AM
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Talking A Design Flaw?

I acquired an engine from a Catalina 30 that seized up from this very issue. Seems to be more common than I thought. It is a shame that a (flawed?) design configuration would impose this additonal burden on one specific production boat which I regard as an otherwise outstanding production vessel. A check valve or rigid starting and shut down protocols seem to be mandatory for the Catalina 30. As Neil suggested, the hot section should be redesigned for maximum possible protection.
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:03 AM
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Old 01-19-2014, 11:08 AM
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Cool The PO

McQ, not all is lost!!! I'm late chiming in so here goes. It looks to me like the PO did a quickie fix of a blown headgasket and did not do any good prep! The rust pits under the gasket are a dead giveaway. If the head was not torqued properly and not retorqued with one or two gaskets there could be some seepage, but it does not look fresh enough.
Now look at the pattern of the combustion chambers, you can see the pits are fresher and emanating from the exhaust valve and into the rest of the chamber. This can be two things and they are related! Either the exhaust was plugging up and creating a raised back pressure condition which can produces droplets of water that can condense and or bounce back into the manifold or the manifold itself may have a pinhole in it, this can be pressure tested easily. When shut down the droplets will settle and evaporate and re-condense many times working through an open exhaust valve(S) while the engine sits and leaving the pattern seen. Don't worry about the chamber area.
If the block stays in the boat remove the valves and studs and you can "HONE" with a big flat hone (did mine with a good big flat file) to see the hi & low spots. Only look to the area covered by the gasket and don't worry about the combustion area at all. The surface doses not need to be perfect but clean and free of "High spots". In fact some imperfections will actually help hold the gasket. In your case definitely use Aviation grade Permatex on the gasket surface. If you get even close all should be OK.
You can get the head surfaced in a shop, but unless it is really out I would not do so.

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Old 01-19-2014, 12:17 PM
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Catalina info

Along with the Catalina 30's center mounted engine configuration comes the challenge of getting the exhaust back to the transom. The factory chose to route the soft section (hose) up from the waterlift, behind the cabinetry on the port side as high as possible to a check valve and then down and out the back, a hose distance of 22 feet. Although I have never had to replace mine, I hear that that job is a bear.
Note to John: Galvanized pipe is not recommended for the hot section because of it's tendancy to "off-gas" when heated. I have found however that the galvanizing can be removed by using a blow torch and a wire brush. Of course this should only be done in a well ventilated area and only if black pipe is not available.
Tom
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Old 01-19-2014, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
A Design Flaw?
I wouldn't consider it a flaw. Flaw implies the designer overlooked or misunderstood something which is simply not the case with Catalina's Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas. This is more like realizing the limitations of a mid engine installation and the hot section height restriction due to cabinetry. Properly done - as from the factory - it works fine. After a few shoddy replacements by a previous owner or two - or their mechanics - the problems begin. My boat is 37 years old and I'm confident it's never suffered a debilitating incursion. It's not like I treat her with kid gloves either - 6.5 knots (GPS) hard on the wind two days ago - that's theoretical hull speed and a pretty darn good ride.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I wouldn't consider it a flaw. Flaw implies the designer overlooked or misunderstood something which is simply not the case with Catalina's Frank Butler and Gerry Douglas. This is more like realizing the limitations of a mid engine installation and the hot section height restriction due to cabinetry. Properly done - as from the factory - it works fine. After a few shoddy replacements by a previous owner or two - or their mechanics - the problems begin. My boat is 37 years old and I'm confident it's never suffered a debilitating incursion. It's not like I treat her with kid gloves either - 6.5 knots (GPS) hard on the wind two days ago - that's theoretical hull speed and a pretty darn good ride.
In a significant number of cases it obviously doesn't work "fine". If a vessel is so designed as to have an engine amidships so far below the water line then it should also be designed with cabinetry such that a standpipe exhaust is feasible or failing that a jacketed system should be provided.
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Old 01-19-2014, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
In a significant number of cases it obviously doesn't work "fine".
Are these cases to which you refer equipped with factory hot sections (or exact duplicates) or some P.O. nightmarish facsimile??

If the design were flawed as suggested, wouldn't 100% of them be problematic right out of the factory?
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Are these cases to which you refer equipped with factory hot sections (or exact duplicates) or some P.O. nightmarish facsimile??

If the design were flawed as suggested, wouldn't 100% of them be problematic right out of the factory?
Not necessarily; strict protocols re the water intake can greatly reduce the incidence of the problem or least delay it for many years. The hot section on this thread and Shawn's (original) do look rather similar - maybe they were factory installed. The point is that even the most vulnerable system can be made to work by the very diligent (or OCD) operator but a factory system should be geared to the average operator. The long (relatively) difficult-to-access exhaust hose and check valve only exacerbate the problem.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:44 AM
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Unhappy Design

A comment, my E-35 MKII suffers the same problem. The boats interior was designed around the placement of the engine in the middle for better weight distribution. The interior had the priority for sales as to not have the exhaust come "UP" through the cabin so it would look appealing instead of functional~u-know male-female because sales win. Then do not underestimate the bean counters as far as developing a shielded exhaust and the additional expense.
In my boat there is nowhere but down for it to go!! I actually have a bit less room in the "up" direction than the C-30 and end up with an exhaust a bit longer. I have had water in my engine at least a dozen times over the 29 years in my service and now have an exhaust that is over 28 feet longl as I put in a second rise for the following sea scenario. I do not have an anti-siphon any longer as having one high enough to "break the siphon" is not possible for the long run. I tried many that are available and they all worked for a bit then stuck!!! Since going away from the "anti-syphon" and installing a "MANUAL" one I have only let the water in twice~totally my error.
As in most thing there are compromises and you get what you pay for.

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Old 01-20-2014, 09:32 AM
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Talking The Wrong Word?

Perhaps I should have said "complication" rather than "flaw".
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:01 PM
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Cat 30 hot section

when I repowered from yse 12 to Atomic 4 I built hot section up into cabinet area with bottom of riser approx. 4 inches above cabinet base, also built entirely new peninsula that has section over motor removable separately, just lost a few inches of lower drawer height. Just returned from 3 days in Avalon, 80 degree weather, mostly motored, reduction gear A4 worked GREAT! 5.5 knots at 2000rpm with 12/12 2 blade prop I got on Ebay. I think I could go with slightly taller pitch, but am close.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:30 AM
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Exclamation Be sure

RMark, those numbers sound great! How big is the boat? Have you checked the load at the 2000 RPM's? What is WOT giving you?

Running these engines "easy" when possible IE low load (hi manifold vac) and moderate RPM like the 2000 is a great set up. I'd look real hard before leaning on the engine to work harder at lower RPM's. The big deal with the reduction unit is that you can get good RPM's out of the A-4 unlike us with the direct drives.

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Old 01-21-2014, 09:37 AM
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It's a 1977 Catalina 30 tall rig, Hull #939. Hauled over Christmas, new bottom paint, Catalina "smile" repair, reworked keel bolts, new shaft, packing and cutlass bearing, buffed and polished hull and rebuilt interior galley area, looks pretty good for 37 year old boat. Have been rail down in the "gulch" several times and no water intrusion issues with hot section redesign. I get 2000 rpm with very little throttle, It will easily rev much higher, but I get some blowby above 2400, Think I need 3 blade 12/14 prop. or 12/15 2 blade.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:39 AM
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The description of your hot section modification tells me you get it, well done. Where are you slipped? My guess based on your location would be Alamitos or Shoreline. Most of the owners I know who drive in prefer the freeway convenience.
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