Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Ignition System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 76.66.157.184
Old 02-11-2018, 08:07 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
New harness wiring - inital

Feedback please.

-Switching over to ignition button from a key switch. Let me know if the PDF link works as it wasn't for me.

Name:  electrical schematic cockpit engine gauges feb 2018.jpg
Views: 1786
Size:  77.5 KB

electrical schematic cockpit engine gauges feb 2018.pdf

Last edited by GregH; 02-11-2018 at 08:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 02-11-2018, 08:10 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Need wire lengths to comment accurately.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 02-11-2018, 08:32 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
I still have the original turn key for ignition/starter. I've considered what to do when (not if) it goes bad. Do I need the key? What security does it buy me, as the terminals are exposed on the back of the key switch? Key at this point just seems to be a pita. Would probably go to a toggle switch for ignition and a push button to activate the starter. I'd be curious to hear other thoughts on this..
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 02-11-2018, 08:33 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
After more than one keyswitch failure that's exactly what I did.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 76.66.157.184
Old 02-11-2018, 08:53 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
-cockpit gauges to engine is about 10',

-solenoid to battery has a ~10' run for the positive wire and ~5' for the ground from engine to battery.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 02-11-2018, 08:57 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Thanks. Mechanical fuel pump?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 76.66.157.184
Old 02-11-2018, 09:43 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Thanks. Mechanical fuel pump?
yep

non EI dist.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 02-11-2018, 09:55 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Sorry for all the questions. One more - is the ignition hot buss close to the panel or the engine?

Assuming the ign buss is near the panel, the design looks solid, all voltage drops are less than 3%. There seems to be a wiring redundancy for the gauge lighting though, perhaps there's a reason. There is no separate switch for the lighting so why the separate feed from the ign buss?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 02-12-2018 at 03:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 02-12-2018, 08:39 AM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Sorry for all the questions. One more - is the ignition hot buss close to the panel or the engine?

Assuming the ign buss is near the panel, the design looks solid, all voltage drops are less than 3%. There seems to be a wiring redundancy for the gauge lighting though, perhaps there's a reason. There is no separate switch for the lighting so why the separate feed from the ign buss?
Good Questions and I don't mind at all - it's why I ask you folks!

- Ign buss is within a foot of the panel.

- I did not put a light switch in the circuit design at this point as the bulbs are LEDs drawing ~0.1A each.

- I ran the lighting from the buss versus directly off the 8awg wire at the ign toggle switch because I had an empty fuse slot and decided to use that instead of an inline fuse for the smaller gauge wire; as well as to keep it as a separate circuit for any future trouble shooting. Though that really doesn't answer your question - how is that circuit redundant?
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 02-12-2018, 09:05 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Actually it does answer the question.

The redundancy is you already have an ign+ wire at the gauges, could eliminate the 18 ga. lighting circuit entirely with a 14 ga. jumper from ign post to light + on each gauge. If there are plans in the future for a gauge light switch your design better accommodates it.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
GregH (02-12-2018)
  #11   IP: 137.200.32.38
Old 02-12-2018, 09:44 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
My boat never had a key switch to start the engine. I see no security issue, anyone already on the boat intending to steal it could jumper a key in 10 seconds. Also note you probably only need about 10 different keys to start any boat
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 76.66.157.36
Old 02-18-2018, 07:20 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Doing a little more prep wiring for the gauges and harness. Decided to go with circuit breakers instead of fuses back at the gauge location. Still have to make good labels and waiting for some wire and 8awg connectors to some in.

Name:  IMG_20180218_48881.jpg
Views: 993
Size:  92.4 KB
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 76.66.157.36
Old 02-18-2018, 08:30 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Something I did not consider when working on this project - it is the same cockpit locker as the new fuel tank. There "shouldn't" ever be vapour issues but have I screwed up and now can't put the gauges and connections in the same locker!?
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-18-2018, 09:34 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Your gauge pod needs to be ignition protected. To achieve the spirit of ignition protection you'll need a sealed enclosure on the back (or a sealed niche in which to mount the panel), sealed wiring ports and a sealed mounting system. It can be done but will take careful planning and execution. For a spark producing component to be certified ignition proof it must pass a test in a propane saturated chamber without igniting the atmosphere.

An alternative for you could be to use only ignition protected switches, breakers or any possible spark producing components exclusively. I think sourcing these items would be a problem, the reason I suggested the sealed enclosure. I think with a little creativity you can accomplish it. Safety first as always.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (02-18-2018)
  #15   IP: 174.192.17.188
Old 02-18-2018, 09:48 PM
tac tac is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 209
Thanks: 11
Thanked 80 Times in 56 Posts
Ignition Protected Components

As Neil implies, your start pushbutton is most likely not ignition protected, and neither are the breakers.

Blue Sea makes 4 circuit (5045), and 8 circuit fuse panels (5046) that ARE ignition protected. They use ATO/ATC fuses.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/504...s_-_8_Circuits

The other components are a problem. Our Coast Guard used to publish (paper copy) a document listing all qualified IP components, but I haven’t seen that in over 35 years. Maybe your Canadian people have such a document.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 71.178.83.213
Old 02-18-2018, 11:40 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
All good discussion..I'd love to eliminate the key on the next go 'round, but there is a fuel fill hose running thru the gauge compartment, so I have to think about it a bit now.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 76.66.157.36
Old 02-19-2018, 09:52 AM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tac View Post
As Neil implies, your start pushbutton is most likely not ignition protected, and neither are the breakers.

Blue Sea makes 4 circuit (5045), and 8 circuit fuse panels (5046) that ARE ignition protected. They use ATO/ATC fuses.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/504...s_-_8_Circuits
I don't get/understand how snapping a plastic cover over something like on the 5045 makes it ignition protected. There's still easy air flow over connections. If that's the case, then shouldn't putting a plastic cover over the terminal strip in the picture suffice? And as said above, cover the back of the gauge housing?

I appreciate the education
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-19-2018, 10:20 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
The ignition protection requirement applies to spark producing components such as switches and breakers. A terminal strip does not produce sparks during normal operation. Our starters, distributors, alternators and electric fuel pumps are required to be ignition protected but secure wiring connections are not. Note that this applies to devices in the engine and fuel tank spaces.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 02-20-2018 at 09:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 174.192.0.240
Old 02-19-2018, 01:15 PM
tac tac is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 209
Thanks: 11
Thanked 80 Times in 56 Posts
Yes, this is why Blue Sea can make an IP device using fuses. The spark producing scenario for an ATO fuse might be if the fuse were to pop out of it’s socket while carrying current, resulting in an arc, followed by a Boom. But the cover fits tight enough over the fuses that it prevents them from popping out. This is why Blue Sea says they are IP only with the cover in place.

Another option might be to use Explosion Proof switches. Companies such as Allen-Bradley (http://ab.rockwellautomation.com/Pus...H-Push-Buttons), Cutler-Hammer, Crouse-Heinie, etc., all make devices for hazardous locations. The prices, and the physical sizes, may cause the Sharp-Intake-of-Breath, but it is a possibility. (For many years I’ve puzzled over why manufacturers of the best industrial electrical equipment have hyphenated names).

For more insight, peruse the USCG regs on this site for a description of IP and the test requirements. Compare that to Explosion Proof requirements in the National Electrical Code (US), or Canadian Electrical Code, and as described in Wicked-Pee-Deah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...as?wprov=sfti1). After reading all that you’ll probably decide to move your panel.
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 174.192.0.240
Old 02-19-2018, 01:37 PM
tac tac is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 209
Thanks: 11
Thanked 80 Times in 56 Posts
For those who’ve slogged through the above references and want more, there is another way out of the fire/explosion threat. It’s not really feasible for small sailboats, but is commonly used, along with Explosion Proof equipment, on tankers, chemical plants, refineries, etc. That is equipment and systems called Intrinsically Safe. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrin...ty?wprov=sfti1
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 02-20-2018, 08:48 AM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
Checked with Blue Seas yesterday and the pop out CB are ignition proof. If I switch over to contura switches, they too are rated. That along with making sure the locker is properly ventilated would meet the requirements. The locker already has 3 big cutouts into the engine section under the cockpit. Each about 3"x8" - have to go reread that section in the Cdn regs.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GregH For This Useful Post:
tac (02-20-2018)
  #22   IP: 174.192.14.225
Old 02-20-2018, 08:04 PM
tac tac is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 209
Thanks: 11
Thanked 80 Times in 56 Posts
Switch Ratings

I’m embarrassed that I’d perused the Blue Sea catalog a couple months ago and never noticed that many Blue Sea breakers and the Contura switches (both made by Carling Switch, I believe) are “external ignition protected”, to UL 1500 and ISO 8846. Although there’s no mention of meeting USCG requirements, these two specs would seem to be compatible with them.

Both these specs are available for hire, at a high price. An abstract of UL 1500 can be found at:
https://standards.globalspec.com/std/1007075/ul-1500

The ISO 8846 abstract is even more abstract:
https://infostore.saiglobal.com/en-u...6-1990-365830/

I‘d be concerned about the use of a Contura momentary pushbutton as a start pushbutton. The A4 starter solenoid draws 12 amps. Contura switches are rated at 20A @ 12V DC, or 15A @ 24V DC. This rating is for resistive loads (if ratings do not specify Resistive, Lamp, Motor, or Inductive, it is good engineering practice to assume the worst: resistive load). While this seems satisfactory, the solenoid has a honking big inductance. Switches connected to inductive loads should be rated for at least 3 times the load’s steady state (resistive) rating, or 36A. Otherwise, the arcing across the opening contacts, caused by the inductor’s stored energy that is released on deenergizing the starter solenoid, may result over time in severe switch contact erosion, switch failure, and possibly contact welding. Contura switches do have a 1/2 HP motor rating (1/2HP = 10 amps), which is an inductive rating, but at 125-250vac, not 12VDC.

Carling’s specs for the Contura switches can be found here: http://www.carlingtech.com/sites/def..._datasheet.pdf

Many people use Cole-Hersee switches for starting. C-H, now apparently owned by Littlefuse (a good name in industrial electrical components), used to have the M-612 N.O. pushbutton switch rated at 35ADC, but not ignition protected. C-H was also mum about its inductive rating. Littlefuse has a similar N.O. pushbutton switch, the 9023, rated at 35A at 12VDC and for inductive loads up to 10A (note that this inductive rating is about 1/3 the resistive load rating of 35A). Sadly, it doesn’t appear to be Ignition Protected.
http://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/comm...-datasheet.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tac For This Useful Post:
GregH (02-21-2018)
  #23   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 02-21-2018, 09:07 AM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 564
Thanks: 385
Thanked 103 Times in 80 Posts
So with the information from TAC above and the trouble finding a suitable switch to fit this information, it SOUNDS like the best (easiest?) route is to make an enclosure for the switches and a sealed port for the wires to pass through.

I'm thinking of making a little fiberglass box to fit the back of the little aluminum ignition plate in the pic posted earlier, and for the wire port, rubber grommet that can tighten down around the wire to make a seal; two of them - one in and one out.

For completeness I can understand having a cover for the back of the gauge panel, but since there are no switches creating potential sparks is it needed?

This compartment which is about 0.7m^3 has openings at the bottom of the locker of about 3000cm^2 for hoses and the like to enter the engine compartment which is lower down. Any vapour would (should?) sink to the bilge where the blower hose is and would be running?

I am assuming that in the regs below when it says exposed to atmosphere that means directly out of the boat and not into another compartment.


https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...-521.htm#wb103

6.3 Ventilation of Spaces Containing Source of Gasoline Vapour
6.3.1 Requirements for Open Spaces
6.3.1.1 Sections 6.3.1.2 to 6.3.1.6 determine spaces that are considered open spaces and do not need to be provided with the natural ventilation system required in section 6.3.2.

6.3.1.2 A separate natural ventilation system is not required if a space containing a source of gasoline vapours, such as a gasoline engine or a fuel tank, has the following characteristics (see Figure 6-2):

at least 0.34 m² (3.5 ft²) of area exposed to the atmosphere per cubic metre (35 ft³) of net space volume; and
no long or narrow unvented spaces in which a flame front might propagate.
6.3.1.3 The net space volume is the volume of space containing the source of gasoline vapour plus the volume of connecting spaces, unless the connecting spaces either:

connect to spaces already ventilated by ducting; or
themselves qualify as open spaces.
6.3.1.4 Spaces connecting with spaces open to the atmosphere, which have interconnecting openings with an area equal to 2% or less of the separation bulkhead, are not considered as open spaces.

6.3.1.5 The separation bulkhead area used for the calculations in paragraph 6.3.1.4 and 6.3.3.3 is calculated using a height that is the lesser of either the distance between the bottom and top of the bulkhead between the spaces, or 750 mm (30 in).

6.3.1.6 Long narrow spaces with a length to width ratio greater than 1:5 formed by side panels or under accommodation decks shall have openings at both ends or along the sides in order to qualify as open spaces.

Figure 6-2. CHARACTERISTICS OF OPEN SPACES



6.3.2 Natural Ventilation of Enclosed Spaces
6.3.2.1 A separate natural ventilation system is required for any enclosed space that does not meet the requirements for an open space as set out in section 6.3.1 and that contains one of the following sources of gasoline vapour:

a permanently installed gasoline engine;
a portable gasoline fuel tank that ventilates into the space; or
a non-metallic gasoline tank:
with an aggregate permeability rate exceeding 42 grams of fuel1 loss in 24 hours per cubic centimetre (1.2 grams per cubic foot) of net compartment volume; or
with a net compartment volume of less than 0.028 cubic metres (1 cubic foot), having a permeability rate exceeding 1.2 grams of fuel loss in 24 hours.
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 174.192.14.225
Old 02-21-2018, 10:57 AM
tac tac is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 209
Thanks: 11
Thanked 80 Times in 56 Posts
Another option is to use a Contura momentary normally open (N.O.) pushbutton to operate a power relay that works the starter solenoid. Advantages:
1. The relay coil draws less than an amp, well within the Contura specs.
2. The relay can be located anywhere that ignition protection is not required.
3. The Contura is ignition protected.
4. No cover will be needed on your panel if all other components are ignition protected.
5. Connection atween the PB and the relay coil can be as small as #16 wires.
6. Add an LED and resistor across the relay coil, or better, across another set of contacts, to give visual indication that the relay is energized. That LED could be mounted on the panel, or on the relay.
7. Add a reversed biased diode, like a 1N4005, for transient protection. The diode, LED and 1KΩ resistor are available from Digikey. One stop shopping.

Potter & Brumfield (formerly a hyphenated Potter-Brumfield) is a maker of some of the best MIL-SPEC relays that can be found in the universe. I see (sadly) they’ve been bought out by Tyco. These relays are automotive, not MIL-SPEC, found through Digikey:

https://www.digikey.com/products/en/...=1&pageSize=25

I would use the $12+ relay. The four pages of specifications makes my heart beat faster. The blades can be easily wired using insulated 1/4” female terminals. Mount the relay on it’s side with a glop of silly-cone or super glue. Or buy a socket.
https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%2...at%20pages.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-21-2018, 11:01 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Disadvantages:
every connection and component are potential failure points. That is the concern/trade-off I've had with the ballast resistor solution for electronic ignition, one additional connection and one additional component in the circuit.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wiring harness for sale Sailor Ron For Sale - Other Items 2 10-31-2021 04:48 PM
A4 Instrument Panel and Wiring Harness For Sale pdecker For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts 1 01-18-2016 02:01 AM
How to use terminal blocks on wiring harness? JonnyQuest Electrical 8 12-02-2013 04:43 PM
Wiring Harness gpd955 Catalina 5 07-27-2010 07:23 PM
Wiring Harness gpd955 Electrical 1 08-30-2006 09:18 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved