Head Removal rabbit hole

[Hiker_00]

Greetings list Friends.

After reading up on other's paths well traveled on this subjuct, I too got in to in. So far, the nuts are off and the head still stuck. It's soaking in p-oil in prepartion for stud extraction another day. All the studs remained in the block. Gentle tapping did nothing. Not eager to start prying. Going slow and steady....

The reason for all this is 1. I'm sure this is the first time ever it's been done. and 2. I really hate water in the oil. You can see in the attached photos the milky 10-30. That would be pink antifreeze and oil to be exact. I changed it during winterization because wait for it ... there was water in the oil again. I thought this all started beacause water backed up through the exhaust in heavy weather sailing. That is a true event but I"ve changed the oil 5 times since and again found the same mess.

No compression test to report but do believe C 3 and 4 are not right. We're soon to find out. I do not expect this process to go well.

The good news is the healthy looking valve spring assemblies. At least nothing looks too nasty. Should I be concerned with the Rust clogged springs? Please to see the good condition of the manifold as well.

The goal in this is to do a thorough job and find why I'm plagued with bad oil.

More to come... Thanks in advance for looking and being out there for when I melt down.

Best Regards

Tim

[Mo]

Hi Tim,

It would have been very beneficial to have compression numbers before you pull the head. I would take the time to do it and then you will know where you are with this.

There are a few places you can get water in the oil from.
-head gasket failure
-water pump seal leak
-water jacket
-cracked manifold
-cracked block

I would definitely be doing a compression test on the engine before I go any further. You may pull that head, replace the gaskets just to find you still have a problem. Then you might have to pull the head again, requiring new gaskets again, just to get to the problem in some cases.

Pressure test the manifold as well. If there is a crack further down it could potentially affect 3 and 4. In such a case the plugs might look really clean on one or both.

[ILikeRust]

I found water in the oil, tried to take the head off in the boat, had a hard time with that, and ended up pulling the engine out of the boat, taking it home and doing a complete and total tear-down and rebuild over a period of several months.

Just a little heads-up as to what kind of rabbit hole you might end up finding yourself heading down!

The whole massacree, in ten-part harmony, with 8x10 color glossies with circles and arrows and paragraphs on the back of each one saying what each one is, can be found here.

[Mo]

...and that's a clean engine.

[Hiker_00]

Bill - your rebuild thread is very impressive and equally frightening. I've never felt the need to go that far but this oil thing has me shaken. The boat is in my front yard with the mast on saw horses on deck and a tarp covering it all. It would be an event to get that motor out of the boat.

What caused your water infiltration? Did you ever find why?



Mo - Thanks for the wisdon on the compression. I'm really trying to keep impatience out of the equation so putting it back together is no problem.

If there's a diety or dance to ward off broken studs and cracks, I'll do it.

Tim

[ndutton]

May I suggest you read the recent Penetrating Oils thread? It describes a home brew that's much more effective than conventional products.

[CalebD]

I'm going to suggest that it may not be such a rabbit hole of a job to replace the head gasket. We also had problems with cylinders #3 & 4 that a little clean up and head gasket replacement helped fix. No stud removals either.

As Mo suggests the water in your oil could be coming from other problems but a new head gasket is a good thing. I had no idea when it was last done on my 45 year old engine. Now I do.

Well worth checking out Neil's reference to DIY penetrating oils made up of basically ATF and Acetone or other thinner.

[Hiker_00]

Found this document in my saved boat stuff folder. Not sure where it came from but it sounds official.

I don't remember reading from other's experiences doing this procedure. It seems prescient.

Tim

[Hiker_00]

[YOUTUBE]edN4o8F9_P4[/YOUTUBE]

It's gotta help, right?


On the hunt for ATF and a can to put it in. Plan to rent a pressure gauge at the Advanced Auto store. I like their rental program.

Tim

[Administrator]

This post was the source.

It was easy to track down because Don inadvertently misspelled the word "schrader."

Bill

[Hiker_00]

Compression Results : 100/110/90/60

Majority of the studs appear to be wicking ATF or PBB. The two Thermostat studs are immobile. Lots of tap tap squirt squirt. The head seems firmly on.

I put the sparks back in and turned it over a couple of times. This was done with no manifold. No dice.

Any thoughts?

Tim

[Mo]

Hi Tim,

May as well pull the head. The first 3 look reasonable but number four is low. Now, that doesn`t sound like a head gasket problem to me right there but it `could`be.

You described water incursion a while back and that could have contributed to a stuck valve situation on number 4. You have the side plates off so try turning it over and see if the valves on number 4 are travelling fully. Might be able to notice something there. More likely scenario there might be a stuck valve.

A few questions:
-did it overheat in the past little while?
-after you changed the oil multiple times earlier? how long before you noticed water / grey oil again?
-has it been running well running steady etc, did it have lots of power?; the boat can attain her hull speed?
-did it have good batching of water out the exhaust?

A couple of scenarios: .

No 1....manifold crack: could give you a water in oil situation is a crack in the rearward part of the manifold. That would allow water to get into combustion chamber and stick a valve....so it is worth testing the manifold as well. The engine could still run but not up to par. If all the plugs looked pretty much the same (tanned) or sooty the water leak is not likely the problem. What you should notice is that one or two plugs are pretty clean or rusty.

No2 .....head gasket leak: you head gasket leak with a leak to a water passage and not an adjacent cylinder.....that would give you low compression and water in oil...and a clean looking plug as well.

No3....raw water pump seal leaking and water is getting into the base pan.

No 4....hole in cylinder wall. Hanley would know allot more on that than I because I haven't run into that yet. The block rusts through and a pinhole opens up in piston bore....usually number 3 I think and your compression on number 3 is not too bad.

No5... crack in a water jacket or block...water flows through the crack, where ever it is and ends up in the base pan.

I'm putting the possibilities out there for you and hoping it's not too bad of a fix. I'm sure the boys will chime in as you progress. I just don't want you to be disappointed if you do the head gasket and there still is a problem. The engine looks to have been well kept and looked after so I'm thinking something easy. Head gasket, stuck valves, manifold and water pump seal come in the easy category. Crack block or hole rusted through cylinder wall come in as majors.

So, with that, go ahead and take the head off. If it is still doesn't want to come off put the plugs in and turn it over on the starter....maybe enough compression to pop it off it's perch

[Hiker_00]

Originally Posted by Mo

Hi Tim,

May as well pull the head. The first 3 look reasonable but number four is low. Now, that doesn`t sound like a head gasket problem to me right there but it `could`be.

You described water incursion a while back and that could have contributed to a stuck valve situation on number 4. You have the side plates off so try turning it over and see if the valves on number 4 are travelling fully. Might be able to notice something there. More likely scenario there might be a stuck valve. Have to purchase a hand crank. Trying to batch an order.

A few questions:
-did it overheat in the past little while?
-after you changed the oil multiple times earlier? how long before you noticed water / grey oil again?
-has it been running well running steady etc, did it have lots of power?; the boat can attain her hull speed?
-did it have good batching of water out the exhaust?

Never have overheated in my ownership. Engine runs cold 140 or so in
Northern New England cold water.

There have not been 2 clean oil checks in a row with engine time since the race.

Engine has been terrific. Runs steady and easily at hull spead. Did a long trip to Grand Mannan Island this August in windless fog and put 40 hours on the engine. Later (seen here http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6813) I did an over night race and ended up with water in the Carburetor, cylinders and oil.
Ran engine at the start of the race. Later in nasty seas we decided to bag it but could not start the engine.
Good flow of water exiting the transom in the past and now.



A couple of scenarios: .

No 1....manifold crack: could give you a water in oil situation is a crack in the rearward part of the manifold. That would allow water to get into combustion chamber and stick a valve....so it is worth testing the manifold as well. The engine could still run but not up to par. If all the plugs looked pretty much the same (tanned) or sooty the water leak is not likely the problem. What you should notice is that one or two plugs are pretty clean or rusty.

No2 .....head gasket leak: you head gasket leak with a leak to a water passage and not an adjacent cylinder.....that would give you low compression and water in oil...and a clean looking plug as well.

No3....raw water pump seal leaking and water is getting into the base pan.

No 4....hole in cylinder wall. Hanley would know allot more on that than I because I haven't run into that yet. The block rusts through and a pinhole opens up in piston bore....usually number 3 I think and your compression on number 3 is not too bad.

No5... crack in a water jacket or block...water flows through the crack, where ever it is and ends up in the base pan.

I have suspected a sticky valve in #4 for some time now. I do not believe the head gasket has ever been changed. I do not have clean/rusty plugs. They are all equally black and sooty but not terrible. I suspect the water pump is not innocent in this issue. There also has not been any sign of bubbles/foam or steam. My biggest symptom is water in the oil. There has not been any water in the carb since the race. I had to put gas in the cylinders to get it started after the race. Only then did I get the oil mixed up to see the milkshake. Either I'm not getting the oil clean with enough changes in a row or there's more water coming in. There have not been any times of hard starting due to wet spark plugs since that one event.


I'm putting the possibilities out there for you and hoping it's not too bad of a fix. I'm sure the boys will chime in as you progress. I just don't want you to be disappointed if you do the head gasket and there still is a problem. The engine looks to have been well kept and looked after so I'm thinking something easy. Head gasket, stuck valves, manifold and water pump seal come in the easy category. Crack block or hole rusted through cylinder wall come in as majors.

So, with that, go ahead and take the head off. If it is still doesn't want to come off put the plugs in and turn it over on the starter....maybe enough compression to pop it off it's perch

I did this but without spark. Are you saying to do it differently than what I reported in the last post?

Thanks for the thoughts I appreciate the second look. I'm desperatly trying to not break one of the studs. The notorious Thermosat studs have me concerned.

I'm wondering if there are two events going on here. The long engine time (for me) may have smooched the water pump seal. I did not check the oil after that. The race cerntainly backed up water through the exhaust. Or the crack scenario comes to fore.

Tim

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by Hiker_00

Bill - your rebuild thread is very impressive and equally frightening. I've never felt the need to go that far but this oil thing has me shaken. The boat is in my front yard with the mast on saw horses on deck and a tarp covering it all. It would be an event to get that motor out of the boat.

What caused your water infiltration? Did you ever find why?

I never did 100% identify with absolute certainty the cause of the water in the oil, but I did find that the water pump was totally shot, so I theorized that some of the water might have been coming through that way. I do know for a fact that there was a small head gasket leak adjacent to #1 cylinder, which is what prompted me to try to remove the head to replace the head gasket, which is what lead me to deciding to remove the engine from the boat, which is what resulted in me doing a full tear-down and rebuild...

I don't know if that leaking head gasket was allowing water to get into the oil, but it seems likely.

The engine now has about 8 hours on the rebuild (I installed a brand new hours meter to keep track of time on the rebuild) and I have yet to change the oil, so it will be, to say the least, "interesting" if I discover water in there this time...

[Mo]

Hi Tim,

If you tried taking it off with just compression (without fire) that will be fine. No need to put the manifold etc back on and I wouldn't bother with it now. There are two lips on the edge of the head and you might be able to put a wood block against it and hit it....don't hit gentle, give the block a good smack. I never did take out the T-stat studs to take mine off...just gave it a few good smacks then gently pried it up over the studs.

When you get the head off you may be able to tell due to a "track" whether or not it was leaking. Also rotate the engine and see if you can notice a pin hole in a cylinder...should be able to see it when the piston is at the bottom of it`s stroke if present...sometimes even has mark there. It doesn't sound like it to me but then again it doesn't take much water to milk up the oil...if all is well there closely look at the block, particularly around studs and between cylinders for cracks in the block...take pics for us to see. Once that all looks OK you can then take those valves out and clean them up, then re-seat them...easy work. This would be a good time to do all the valves and it should take about an hour.
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Once done that you could pressure test the block to see if it`s OK (Hanley can tell you exactly what you need to do for that if you need) then put the head back on and torque it as per MMI specs.

It will be your call then to perhaps pull the water pump and rebuild it...I`ve never done a complete rebuild on one but supposed to go pretty well. Before ordering parts pull your old impeller and see if the shaft is scored..take pics...if so order another or just buy another pump. MMI will steer you straight on that.

It will take 3 or 4 oil changes to clear the water and even after that you might have residual milkiness on the dipstick and inside the oil cap. I have an old shop vac who`s only job is to suck the oil out of my base pan....I have a smaller hose taped to the end of the vacc hose and it does the job fast and if your smaller hose is long enough you can shove it in any direction once it`s down in the pan....cleans it out perfect. To do this properly follow the general directions in the next paragraph.

Now, since you have the boat at home, put everything back together and rig a jerry can to draw water through...put a hose to the jerry can and let you new or rebuilt pump draw as required for rpm...then you don`t force it through the engine. Run the engine for about 4 minutes or so then shut down and suck out the oil and add new. Use the cheapest oil you can get your hands on for the first few....good stuff for about 4th for it should be OK to stay.

Here`s what I do for my engine and it runs great.
-15w40 diesel oil
-no T stat
-by valve open 1/2
-NGK XR4 spark plugs....these keep the combustion chamber clean when the engine as you engine will now be running a bit cooler.
-when you winterize again after all of this I highly recommend some car antifreeze (green) sucked aboard that engine and exhaust since you are in Northern New England...as cold there as it is here.

[Hiker_00]

Put vice grips on the front thermostat stud and got nowhere. Didn't try too hard. Would heat help this? Is it a given these studs will break - get over it?

connected the air compressor to the manifold on my workbench. Good air pressure at the top flange hole and water exit port but nothing else detected. THe manifold looks really good. Blackned but no rust. A failed manifold would put water in the cylinders and carberator, right? I do not have this issue.

I eye balled the water pump at the end of the day. It will be more yoga to get it off the engine. It's time. I've never replaced the bearings and don't know when, if ever, it was done. (no pump performance issues known)

Lastly, AutoZone has stud extractors they lend out. (free) Why is something mechanics use on cars not trustworthy for our purposes? I have not seen the extractor, it was out on rental. If it has a similar collett arrangement, would it be a danger to use? They did not know if it was suitible for fine thread studs. They look similar to the Snap-on.

I really only have decent access to two sides of this head to get this off with the studs in place. It just does not seem possible but what do I know? destroyed my best scraper and eventually beat a screw driver in a little way. I hate doing this but was following advice on this site from our host.

ATF all over the place. Hope it's doing it's thing.

Regards,

Tim

[Mo]

Usually the stud corrodes and bonds to the head. Neil put a link for some good penetrating oil...one was tranny fluid mixed with acetone...better than all of them. Tranny fluid by itself isn't going to be as good as the worst of the penetrating oils.

If you have soaked it already and it didn`t give you could try just twisting it off...it will. Usually breaks off at the T stat or within the housing or head. Once you give that head a few good smacks with a block of wood/hammer combo it should give and start....then pry it up with whatever you have available trying to take it up even...on end a tiny bit then work around...it will come up over the studs as well. Once the head is off the studs usually turn out of the block pretty easy....it's usually the section of stud where it goes through the head, near the Tstat housing, that's corroded.

[Hiker_00]

Thanks Mo

Will try the block and hammer - Thinking deadblow hammer.

By ATF, I mean ATF+acetone mixed in a glass jar and dispensed in small doses with the oil squirt can. My clean little engine room is a mess.

Thanks for the longer post. Good information and a lot to think about. Glad to see a lapping in action. I have a great bucket draw method for running on the hard. Works great for acid baths and anitfreeze. It seems a ways away to be thinking of this engine running. Maybe not- things do go quickly once the hard parts are surmounted.

Thanks
Tim
Maine

[Mo]

Technical Difficulties....that all it is. Take lots of pics of what you are doing downsize them, then post on here. Some of us here have keen eyes and can spot things that may be a problem and also the things that are not an issue. Some areas for pics
- top of block once you remove head with gasket still on there...to see if there was a leak.
-top of block once you have cleaned it all up...close up or macro of any areas you might suspect a crack...usually easy to see.
-pic of cylinder walls with cylinder at bottom of stroke...hole usually appears about 1/2 way down the bore if occurs
-if any concerns about valves etc ..take the pic

The same parts store that has stud remover for free likely has a lapping tool as well. To be honest I wouldn't be intimidated by it....don't be afraid to hit it that's all....we can bang on something lightly all day sometimes but it might take only a couple of "good" smacks to break it free.

PS: You are in Maine....colder there than it is here in Halifax. I saw my first snow flake of the year today and today has been our coolest yet....would have been a great sail though all the same as wind was between 20-30 kts. LOL

To give you an idea of what you might be looking for see post number 9 in the following link. Not meaning to scare you but this would be a worst case scenario.....although I don't think it is your problem.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...t=head+removal

[ILikeRust]

I have found that removing seriously rusted bolts, studs, etc., requires three things:

1. Heat
2. Very good penetrating oil
3. Patience

Use a torch and hit that spot where the stud comes out until it's good and hot. A little wisp of steam should come out. Then squirt it with some Kroil or your favorite concoction. If you're using the acetone/ATF mix, be very, very careful, as acetone is highly flammable.

Let it sit.

Come back later and hit it with the torch again, get it good and hot, squirt it with the penetrating oil.

Let it sit.

Apply some torque/smack it with a hammer/leverage, as needed.

Repeat.

I've had studs/hinge pins on antique machinery/bolts, etc., that I worked on for three-four days before they finally started to move.

[sastanley]

Tim, Keep plugging away at it. If I had the thing in my driveway, I'd yank the motor and get it somewhere warm(er) to work on it..then the engine room cleaning will be a snap..

[Hiker_00]

Used more ATF/Acetone and PBB . Put a propane torch to the Therm Studs. Actually caught a puddle of ATF in the Thermostat well aflame. No harm.

Hit the head with lumber and stout hammer. Shook the boat. Many hits, checked the stands afterward. No real gain. There is a crack in the joint from a screw driver pounded in. It might be a little more pronounced. Blasted it with PBB. Probably put the engine out of alignment.

I've been tempted to give up on removing studs to get the head off. It seems highly unlikely to drill out a broken stud with the engine on board. What are the odds of getting all of those 3/8 in studs out?


I have not tired using a drywall 4" knife to get the separation going. Like others have done.

Oh and it's snowing. The wife said "just what are you up too?"

Thanks all for your encouragement.

Tim

[ILikeRust]

Your standard Bernz-o-Matic propane torch won't generate enough heat to get the job done. I would use at least a MAPP gas torch. Acetylene would be even better (but more expensive and complicated).

Keep at it - patience is a virtue!

[Mo]

Hey Tim.

There should be a small lip ... a portion where the head extends just a bit out over the width of the block. If you can get you wood on that it might move. You will be hitting from low and the wood will be almost vertical knocking the head upwards. Once it moves you may then gently work your way around with the screw driver. Not sure you know what I'm talking about but someone did have a pick of that on here at one point. If someone remembers that thread could you link the pic.

Might want to be careful of trying to bang a screw driver in there...it is cast and can crack...the wood should take the damage instead of the cast. I think you are doing OK ... it will just take some time.

If you are using a propane torch need to hold it on each one about 4-6 minutes heating the head area around the stud as well. Then put a nut loosely on the stud to protect threads and give it a half gentle tap or two with the hammer. Then try taking it out.

Halogen work light warms the boat up nicely when it's semi-cold outside.

[Mo]

Tim,
That lip on the head that I was talking about.....looks like it's directly above the first valve spring...about 1/8 of an inch out further than the rest of the head there. If you can get a piece of wood on that and bang it upwards you may just get it real fast. Once it breaks pry the rest as it comes.