helping a Tartan 27 owner with an A4

[Fishguy]

Two weeks ago I purchased a 1966 Tartan 27(mine was built by Schock boats in CA) Well, I have had the boat for two weeks now, I live a couple hours away from my marina, so this weekend was my first chance to visit/work on her. I started on the engine(serial#194010 model#5101), it was unmolested from whenever it became inoperable years ago (no one had taken anything apart and it looks like a previous owner had pulled out a seized choke cable, broken it and given up) no oil in the bilge and cranks over easily and smoothly by hand. So I'm taking my chances, started out by scrubbing,scraping chiseling and vacuuming off all the rust and corrosion. Masked it off and painted it, towed it over to the fuel/repair dock and used their fluid vacuum pump to suck out and flush all the oil and fuel. Replaced with fresh oil and topped up the tank with fuel. Pulled all the plugs and added some marvel mystery oil to each cylinder, installed new plugs and wires and two new batteries. The starter appears to be seized, I will be pulling it and the alternator and taking them to a shop hoping for a rebuild, the carb should be rebuilt probably and I will probably replace the distributor cap, rotor and points. The little hand operated priming fuel pump appears seized, so that needs to be addressed. Here's a couple before and after pictures. I'm open for suggestions, I'm not a mechanic....
Well, I have had the boat for two weeks now, I live a couple hours away from my marina, so this weekend was my first chance to visit/work on her. I started on the engine, it was unmolested from whenever it became inoperable years ago(no one had taken anything apart) no oil in the bilge and cranks over easily and smoothly by hand. So I'm taking my chances, started out by scrubbing,scraping chiseling and vacuuming off all the rust and corrosion. Masked it off and painted it, towed it over to the fuel/repair dock and used their fluid vacuum pump to suck out and flush all the oil and fuel. Replaced with fresh oil and topped up the tank with fuel. Pulled all the plugs and added some marvel mystery oil to each cylinder, installed new plugs and wires and two new batteries. The starter appears to be seized, so I will probably just put a new one on, the carb should be rebuilt probably and I will probably replace the distributor cap, rotor and points. The little hand operated priming fuel pump appears seized, so that needs to be addressed. Here's a couple before and after pictures. I'm open for suggestions, I'm not a mechanic....

[sastanley]

carb & fuel pump

fishguy - welcome!! A checklist we remind folks of around here is the three things these motors need to run...compression, fuel, & spark. I recommend focusing on one at a time, but all three eventually, to get her running. You have taken the first step on compression by adding MMO to the cylinders..keep doing this and turning it over by hand. You can put your thumb over a plug hole while rotating the motor to see if each cylinder has compression..as the piston is coming up with both valves closed, it should try to push your thumb off the plug hole..if it does, you are good there..if it doesn't, you may have a stuck valve..sometimes they will come loose on their own or with added help. Later we can get fancy and do compression tests with gauges and stuff..for now the thumb test is adequate. Next we have fuel, which I've blabbered on about a bit with my opinions, below.

I would pull the carb and clean it. In my experience, when ethanol laced fuel sits around in things like carbs, it turns to a gel and makes a mess...might as well crack it open and blow out all of the little holes and jets...pay special attention to the two tiny holes in the carb throat on either side of the throttle butterfly plate.you can use a bread tie stripped of its paper (or other really small gauge wire) to make sure you get these cleaned out.. one other tip. EYE protection!!! The jets and holes in the carb have weird routes and the carb cleaner often comes back at you from another orifice!

The mechanical fuel pump is a tricky little beast, but I personally prefer it over adding another electrical component involving the electric fuel pump. If the push rod (which is in the side of the block and is moved by the camshaft) is in the extended position, it will hold the diaphragm and not allow you to manually actuate the pump with the external lever. There are rebuild kits available for this too, but I would first turn the motor a bit with the hand crank to change the position of the push rod to allow the diaphragm space to move and see if you can get it to pump fuel...when it is pumping air there will be little resistance, but you'll feel the pressure of the fluid when it gets in the pump. It may take a minute or two of sucking air out of the fuel line to prime the pump. - If you want, you can turn the engine by hand while placing light pressure on the lever...you should feel the push rod moving the diaphragm back and forth while holding the lever.


One step at a time and we'll help you get her running...if your boat did not come with one, add the Moyer Manual to your first order once we've helped you compile a parts list.

[Fishguy]

Thanks! I will be back on it a it this next weekend and will thumb check the compression and fiddle with the fuel pump, will probably pull off the carb along with the starter and alternator. Here's some more pictures, they didn't load with original post? Maybe because I'm a newbee I'm limited to two?

[Fishguy]

One more picture

[sastanley]

Great start...looks like Rustoleum Hammered Copper..I think that makes 3 engines on the forum that color..

Here's mine.

[Easy Rider]

Pretty nice! Now all you need to do is buff up those brass fittings. Good work.

[thatch]

Shawn, At least four.
Tom

[sdemore]

Make it 5, mine is too!

[CalebD]

helping a Tartan 27 owner with an A4

A member of my Tartan 27' owners group is a recent owner and is struggling with a new/old engine. I am sure I linked this forum to him to ask his questions about the Atomic 4 but sometimes the best advice is ignored. In any case, I supply the meat of his last A4 query to this brain trust.



Ok, I spent some time on the boat this weekend, but not as much with the engine, had my wife and daughter with me and we stripped all the old varnish off the coaming boards in the cockpit and went fishing on Sunday.

I did check the compression with my thumb and by cranking over by hand, pretty much got nothing... #2 initially had a little push to it, the other three, not much of anything. I'm not sure if I need to check it while using the starter? With the hand crank I tried each cylinder approx 2-3 revolutions at about 1/3 - 1/2 revolution at a time... I am discouraged and didn't have much time, so I did not pull the starter or anything else off. I did add some more marvel myster oil to each cylinder. On that note, I have only added the MMO directly to the cylinders, approx 1-2 ounces to each cylinder, twice now, and both times I ended up with quite a bit of MMO leaking out of the carb area?? Is that normal? Or maybe indicative of bigger problems? I also checked the manual fuel pump out, it only seems to move a small amount (1/4- 1/2") with considerable resistance and moves no fuel. The stainless trap is completely empty and clean. I found a Moyer receipt from 3 years ago for the bowl and pump arm only. Talking to the PO, he stated that to his knowledge, the guy that owned it and let things go before he bought the boat back had been coming back from the fuel dock and the engine died, thinks that the fuel valve is closed and that is what I have found. There is a needle valve between a metal fuel line and the rubber fuel line that appears stuck closed. So maybe the pump is vapor locked?

I'm not sure how to proceed? Should I pull the starter anyway? I tried again to jump the connections on the solenoid and got no movement , only sparks. Don't know what my thumb compression findings mean, and don't really want to spend the $ on getting the starter rebuilt if the engine has b igger issues... I was thinking I could pull the rubber hose off the valve and see if the fuel pump will move better or is that all it is supposed to move anyway? I can take down some gas cans to remove the fuel and change that needle valve is my plan for that.

Thanks again to everyone!

Sounds to me like he may have a stuck valve or two or is it not unusual for MMO to make its way back down to the carb through one cylinder or the other?
Any takers? I'll send him the link to this thread.

[roadnsky]

I'll contribute this...

Doing the "Thumb" compression test by hand cranking won't work.
He needs to use the starter.

Here's a quote from Don,
"For the purpose of diagnosing a major power loss, a simple check using your thumb over each spark plug hole is more than adequate. If your compression is sufficient so as to make it impossible for you to hold your thumb over each spark plug hole while cranking the engine with the starter, the cause of your power loss is not a major mechanical failure."

Also sounds like he has fuel delivery issues.
I'd suggest starting with a known clean fuel source (temporary tank)
The "mechanical fuel pump crew" will have to comment more on his pump.

[tenders]

My order of attack would be:
1 - Get the starter working, to check for compression and to ensure the electrical system is functional
2 - Address the compression/valve issues - a cheap compression gauge from Harbor Freight would be more than adequate; the Marvel leakback is unremarkable in an engine that hasn't been run. Guessing the valves are a little stuck and tapping them down with an Allen wrench through the spark plug holes will get them moving again, possibly also with the inclusion of some MMO in the fuel for added lubrication once the engine is started again
3 - Address the fuel problems by getting the engine running from a gravity-fed container of clean fuel and then working backwards through the system to the fuel tank

I would add electronic ignition without a second thought, but not until the engine is running somehow.

[Marty Levenson]

starter

+1 on Tenders' work flow. I would add charging the batteries.

Don't be shy about pulling off the starter - its a 15 minute job.

Once off, open it up and have a look: there may be an obvious problem. Might just need to be lubed and unfrozen.

Several years ago, up the coast the starter made terrible sounds when we tried to fire her up and head into an unfamiliar harbour. I spent the next hour up to my elbows in grease while my wife learned how to sail the boat in increasing waves and wind. Although I had never looked inside a starter in my life, it was obvious that the king pin had broken into several pieces that were jammed up in the gears. Pretty easy to dig out the bits and reassemble as I had lots of spare cotter pins. It was a great day.

I think that getting your head around troubleshooting and giving yourself permission to fumble around in strange parts of the engine is a big part of the fun of owning an A4. No black boxes!

BTW I now carry a bottle of Fast Orange Smooth hand cleaner (made by Permatex).

[JOHN COOKSON]

Back To Basics

What appears to be multiple problems can seem overwhelming at times.*
For the engine to start and run you will need compression, fuel and spark delivered to the cylinders, and properly adjusted choke and timing.
Since adequate compression has not yet been demonstrated yet I might suggest that compression be the first priority. Then address other problems.

TRUE GRIT

* Actually I like it better this way than "my something is not working, why?" Then it goes round and round only go find out in the end the "something" was not the problem after all!

[CalebD]

Thanks for your initial ideas.

I have emailed the owner with a link to this thread so hopefully he shows up.

[sastanley]

Caleb, Let's see how things go...The pump may seem vapor locked, but should pull fuel by hand unless the diaphragm has failed...in which case it might still pull fuel and dump it in the crankcase. That is a simple rebuild kit or electric pump replacement. We'll get there when we get there..

+2 on tenders checklist, but I would do it in the order of compression, spark and then fuel..no sense in filling the manifold and cylinders with fuel until we have compression and no sense in filling the cabin with fumes until we have spark...the fuel delivery is all external and easy to fix with the suggestions provided.

There is a needle valve between a metal fuel line and the rubber fuel line that appears stuck closed.

Not sure about the "needle valve" he is referring to.