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Old 04-10-2017, 10:25 PM
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Unsupported prop shaft....

How far does your shaft stick out?

My shaft is exactly 4 feet long and I measured from the cutless to the prop hub. It is 5 3/8 inches. Wow, yes I know. I am running the Indigo 10X7.4 three blade. The blade tip to hull clearance is 1 5/8 inches. If I shorten the shaft by 1 inch the clearance would be 1 1/4 inches. It has been this way since 2001. I replaced the shaft with the current one, along with the prop and cutless back in 2001. I ran the ICW and did some sailing until 2008 when I pulled the boat. So it had been over 1000 miles of motoring. The cutless was very worn then. I checked the engine alignment and found it was off (my bad). I aligned the engine and replaced the cutless. I pulled the boat last month, after 9 years of use. The cutless was barely worn. (I had already ordered a new cutless, but could have gotten away with the old one). I have been thinking of shortening the shaft for years. But at this point I am thinking of leaving it alone. I know I have way more unsupported shaft then is recommended. If I shorten the shaft the prop gets too close to the hull. Years ago I ran a 12X6 with a shaft 1 inch shorter. Maybe the laws of physics are null under my boat? BTW the marina was not hit by a tornado.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
How far does your shaft stick out?
Hmmm.
How do I answer that?
I'd say mine is 4-5 inches. I believe its a 16 x 11. Zinc fell off four years ago.
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Last edited by lat 64; 04-11-2017 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:25 AM
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Well, it's certainly not a textbook installation but given the hull configuration I don't see what choice you have. I think your successful nine years drives the decision to leave it alone.

If you shorten the shaft to meet the standard clearances as close as possible (1 shaft diameter minimum clearance between prop tip and hull, same between cutlass and prop hub) you'll be committed to a smaller prop forever and between it and being closer to the cutlass it'll be spinning in more disturbed flow. Nah, I'd let it be. I wouldn't like it on principle but what else are you gonna do?
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:14 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
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Well, it's certainly not a textbook installation but given the hull configuration I don't see what choice you have. I think your successful nine years drives the decision to leave it alone.
+1
Don't fix it if it isn't broken.
An improvement is a different story.


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Old 04-11-2017, 11:30 AM
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Yah, +2 here.

You proved it works and you have shown that prop alignment is more important than getting a more ideal (shorter) unsupported shaft.

Surely that jetski could be hauled off to the landfill
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Old 04-12-2017, 12:55 AM
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Thanks guys. My thoughts too.

Just wondering if others have way too much shaft unsupported.

This boatyard is the place where dreams go to die. What a disaster!!
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:14 AM
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This boatyard is the place where dreams go to die. What a disaster!!
Looks to be a boat grave yard. How depressing. Maybe left there as a reminder to pay your yard bill?

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Old 04-12-2017, 03:06 PM
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My boat yard is a bit like R.C.'s.
But, I find it an asset. If I need a ladder or oil drum to stand on, there's always one laying around. My winter cover is made almost entirely of salvage from the shrink wrap garbage pile.
I guess Jet skis are useful too. The gas tanks make a good hazmat dump and the whole machine can be used for target practice.
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Old 04-12-2017, 03:59 PM
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KISS and "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Here is a non-standard idea that I don't really like either.
Instead of shortening the shaft, make it longer and add a strut.

This would move the prop to more undisturbed water, which would be the only positive effect IMHO.
Adding the complexity of a strut violates the all important KISS principle.

I was on a friends recently purchased C&C 35' mk iii last summer. We were motoring from the Hudson River to the Long Island Sound with the intention of going to Block Island. In the Sound we noticed the prop/shaft making a kind of banging sound that would sometimes go away by adjusting the throttle. By the end of the day we had reached Huntington Bay but I had noticed that there was quite a bit of water in the bilge that was overwhelming the bilge pump. It turns out that one of the 4 bolts that holds the strut in place had vibrated enough to completely fall out, leaving a nice round 3/8" hole in the hull. We ended up calling for a tow and after perhaps a 2 mile tow we were in Huntington Harbor where an emergency yard hauled the boat out with their travel lift at about 9pm (after dark). Block Island would have to wait; all the planning and provisioning done for naught.
The silver lining in all of this was that we discovered the leak within 2 miles of a populated harbor with lots of marine services rather than further east where we could have been 30 miles (or more) from any harbor that could help us.
It was a pretty windless summer day so we were motoring the entire day with no chance of sailing into harbor. First time for me being on a boat that had called for a tow and boy did they show up fast once we called in. Good thing for me I had only had one or two beers as all the water LEOs from neigboring towns showed up.
I am sure this experience taints my appreciation for shafts with struts on them. My little Tartan 27' with the shaft exiting the deadwood of the keel in a cutaway before the rudder is the ultimate in simplicity (KISS).

My $.05.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:30 PM
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I think we'd all probably agree you shouldn't hack away at your keel with a sawzall to mount a strut with a few screws....

I'm going to be a PO someday, and I don't want to be remembered like this.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:38 PM
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no unsupported shaft at all. That is the propeller I posted about...

James
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Old 04-12-2017, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
I think we'd all probably agree you shouldn't hack away at your keel with a sawzall to mount a strut with a few screws....

I'm going to be a PO someday, and I don't want to be remembered like this.
The "funny" part about that incident was that my friend was speaking with another member at our club who owns the exact same boat (C&C35' mk iii) and he told my friend that it was likely the strut as it had failed for him in a similar way.
I don't think some PO sawzalled the hull to install the strut, I think C&C did that originally. What was a PO "fix" was the Bondo covering at the base of the strut which was pulled off for my picture. The Bondo was limp like a sponge too.
I wonder what Neil D. might say about struts and C&C build quality. He is our resident expert from the builders point of view after all.

Nice propellor Hymo.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
I wonder what Neil D. might say about struts and C&C build quality. He is our resident expert from the builders point of view after all.
Based on very few C&C manufactured boats I've seen personally my opinion of their build quality isn't that great but that may be unfair due to a microscopic sample size. I think their designs are stellar however so I guess you could call it a mixed bag.

Studying the strut picture and reading the post-sortie debriefing, several problems are apparent:
  1. The strut does not sit flat against the recess in the hull. The aft end of the base is slightly aft of the flat in the recess and is kissing the angle. That way it will never bolt up tight. The aft part of the recess should have been relieved with a grinder before the strut was installed.
  2. Stainless machine screws on a cast bronze strut below the waterline is bad form for the reason everyone on this forum knows. Silicon bronze machine screws are what belong there. This may not be a C&C goof, probably a PO.
  3. Never ever use Bondo or similar automotive body fillers below the waterline. A structural filler is required, usually made by the installer by mixing a fibrous thickening agent into polyester resin to the required viscosity. Back in the early to mid 70's we used powdered asbestos. Sure, it'll kill ya but it was strong like granite. Life's a trade-off.
For further information please read my Factory Driveline Installation thread.
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Old 04-12-2017, 11:03 PM
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Russ we should compare yards.

Just the other day I had to avoid a falling mast. The boat next to me was being dismantled and dismasted. They were about to lower the deck step mast when it went its own way. (btw, I told them not to undue the stays until it was hooked to the crane)

The mast came crashing down and missed my boat by inches. Lucky for the mast that my scaffold broke the fall. The jet ski survived without an additional scratch. Even more fun was that the mast was wood and had a huge bees nest in it. We were dodging bees for days. I cant get used to those inquisitive bees. The yard boss was stung and started to swell. We got him to the er just in time. I nailed him with an epi pen, but it did little. The bee keeper was called and collected the cute little fellows. He estimated 30,000 bees were living in that hollow wooden mast.

Every day I arrive at the yard with a knot in my stomach, wondering what has happened over night. I have stayed on the boat about half the nights returning home only to eat dinner and shower.
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Old 04-13-2017, 12:09 AM
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Oh cripes! this thread is off the scale.

We need some kitten pics just to pull out of this dive,

Re: "compare yards", You win. The bee story really made me laugh. Thanks for that.
I have eagles crapping on the boat and a great view of the airport; nothing like your Fort Sumpter though. Tom G. knows this place. I get to watch the Coast Guard C-130s do approaches and touch-an-gos. Always something fun to see while the paint dries.
Photo is a plane that parks about 200 yards awayDa comrade, Kool!
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Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"

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Old 04-13-2017, 01:00 AM
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Romantic, I'd speak to the yard manager or ownership and request a certificate of insurance naming you as additional insured. It's commonplace for marinas to require it as a condition of tenancy, no reason it can't be done the other way around too.

Looking at the pictures I'd need something more than their word. With the mast episode it's obvious they don't know what they're doing either, another reason to be certain their insurance is in full force.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Wow, nothing enhances an already-great story like the introduction of 30,000 bees! I'm going to remember that for the next time one of my tales seems to be lagging.

Caleb: yikes. My strut is attached with what I thought looked like too many (six) throughbolts. I don't think that any more! Would not be surprised if the galvanic action on the C&C had been compounded by some engine misalignment, fatiguing and breaking that bolt off. How long did it take you to trace the leak to that?
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:40 PM
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Here's what a box of doughnuts, a bottle of scotch, and $300 will get you in my yard:
We just put a loop around the spar and let the crane slide it up to the spreaders. A tag line to balance it and ONE boss to rule them all.
It went back up the same safe way
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Old 04-13-2017, 05:16 PM
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
Wow, nothing enhances an already-great story like the introduction of 30,000 bees! I'm going to remember that for the next time one of my tales seems to be lagging.

Caleb: yikes. My strut is attached with what I thought looked like too many (six) throughbolts. I don't think that any more! Would not be surprised if the galvanic action on the C&C had been compounded by some engine misalignment, fatiguing and breaking that bolt off. How long did it take you to trace the leak to that?
Neil: thanks for your detailed description and thoughts on strut alignment. Now I am unsure about how C&C originally installed the strut on this C&C 35' mk iii. It seems evident they did not follow the methodology that was used on the Newport 30' hulls.
I think you are correct about C&C in that their boats can be very good sailors but certain aspects of their build process may be lacking; this strut being one of them.

Tenders: as to how long did it take to trace the leak to the strut...
We motored around Manhattan and missed the following current through Hell Gate so we were battling a contrary current (very poor timing). Because of this my friend had goosed the throttle to it's max while we motored forward at as low as 1 knot in some places. Where the East River widens out (above Hell Gate) we picked up some speed but it was still slow going. We first noticed this extra noise somewhere in the East River.
We then stopped in Port Washington to take on more diesel and water in the water tank. After filling the water tank I noticed that the bilge pump was on so we checked the bilge which was not dry but not overly full.
It was a low wind summer day so we continued motoring east and it wasn't until my friend went for a nap that I took another look at the bilge (now late afternoon) and noticed fairly high water there.
I wont rule out galvanic corrosion as a contributing factor but I think the most likely contributor to this failure was the folding prop (Martec or similar). These props can/do snap into position once the shaft starts spinning, each time delivering a shock to the strut/drive train. In any event, the strut was loosely held in place so I think one should be happy to have 6 bolts instead of 4 holding this key component firmly.

The repair.
Knutsons marine made all the repairs which required draining and removing the fuel tank get at the repair area. It took them some time to line up the right "fiberglass guy" but about 6+ weeks later the boat was ready. I wish I stopped by to watch the work in progress to see if they used the silicone bronze bolts that have been mentioned here but that did not happen.

The bill.
My friend told the insurance adjuster that he thought we hit something; there are always large hunks of wood and tree branches that one might hit while transiting this area. The adjuster found no evidence of collision of any sort so most of the claim was denied as "normal wear and tear". I believe insurance paid for the tow and the emergency haul out but did not cover the major cost of the strut repair. My friend was out 5 - 6 boat bucks.

He is already talking about going to Block Island this summer. I hope to get a better look at the repair that was done before signing on for that trip.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Neil: thanks for your detailed description and thoughts on strut alignment. Now I am unsure about how C&C originally installed the strut on this C&C 35' mk iii.
If it were my boat I wouldn't care how C&C installed it. Now that it's mine and has already shown itself to be a problem I'd make it right.

Unrelated side story: my daughter had a ticket on a United flight tonight that was overbooked. She opted for the voucher instead of the beating.
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