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  #1   IP: 198.182.56.5
Old 02-29-2012, 07:00 PM
junaido junaido is offline
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Need A4 help and guidance in Bellingham WA

Just bought a Catalina 27 with an A4 in Bellingham, WA. Would like to get some help and advice on how to operate this engine and determine the condition of it. We plan to motor-sail to Seattle soon so it is imperative that we at least have a good grasp of the basics. This forum has very useful information but I am thinking half an hour with a knowledgable guy would be more helpful than days of perusing the threads on various forums.

Would really apprecaite some local A4 owner who can meet us at the boat, or failing that some local mechanic recommendations.

Thanks,

J.
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:22 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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We Don't Believe In Mechanics

This is a forum of do it your self people but we'll meet you half way: Post the mechanics work plan and we'll comment on it. If the mechanics work plan does not include a compression check have no further dealings with him.

Surprise: Buying a boat is a lot like getting married. You've got to like (and maybe even love) it. It's not about money.

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Old 03-01-2012, 11:25 AM
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Talking Getting Started

If you are new to the A4 the best move you can make is to get the Service and Overhaul Manual available on this site.
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:34 AM
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Based on what I've read here on this forum as well as my own experience, you likely will have a hard time finding a mechanic who is qualified to work on your Atomic 4 and who also is willing to do so. Many mechanics these days don't want to work on "those old gas engines" - I still don't know why, because it is a very simple engine to work on and repair.

First thing I would do is buy the Moyer Service and Overhaul Manual. Give that a good read, and you will get an excellent and thorough overview of how the engine is put together, its key features and how to maintain and repair it.

I would suggest the following at a very minimum:

1. Check the compression on all four cylinders.

2. Determine whether the engine has electronic ignition or points and condensor, and make sure the fly weights in the distributor are free and properly operating.

3. Check the condition of the spark plugs, wires, alternator belt and cooling water hoses. (I'm assuming it is still raw water cooled).

4. Check the condition of the carburetor and fuel filter (what kind of fuel filter does it have?)

5. Check the condition of the water pump and impeller.

6. Change the oil for fresh 30 weight.

Do you have any service or maintenance records from the previous owner? If not, I would be inclined to replace the water pump impeller, since you don't know how old it is - unless it looks essentially brand new once you open it up.

Do you have any specific questions? It's easier for the gang here to answer questions than to try to provide a comprehensive overview.

The good thing is that the Atomic 4 is a pretty simple and reliable engine.
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:35 AM
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Also, buy yourself a bottle or three of Marvel Mystery Oil.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:39 PM
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Need A4 help

J.

All the above replys are absolutely correct.

Top on my priority list would be an inspection of the packing gland. If thats worn out you will take on a lot of water.

Heres a couple of links on this subject.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box&page=1

http://www.diybob.com/diyPackingGland.htm

Bill
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:42 PM
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when was the last time it ran?
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:46 PM
wmmulvey wmmulvey is offline
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Need A4 help

J.

Additonal info links


http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4/atomic4specs.htm

http://pearsonvanguard.homestead.com/files/atomic4.htm

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/atomic4manual/a4manual.htm

Bill
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:10 PM
junaido junaido is offline
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Thanks for all the helpful links and advice. We bought this boat at marina auction so unfortunately the previous owner is out of the picture. I did find a receipt from a local marine service company for $400 for some carb work done in 2006. Unfortunately that company (Boondock Marine in Bellingham ) burnt down and is no longer in operation. The engine is raw-water cooled. Has a Racor fuel filter. The oil looked clean and full, the spark plug wires also appear in good condition. I didn't pull the spark plugs but plan to do that this weekend. I put in fresh gas (87 octane with ethanol) and new marine battery. The engine cranks fine with the new battery so I guess the starter is OK, but it did not start. I am wondering if there is valve on the fuel tank that I missed or maybe I need to manually prime the fuel ? Engine seems OK to my untrained eye. No big leaks, oil stains or major rust. Basically its just been sitting for a while. I have had other boats with outboards and inboard diesel (FWC Westerbeke 20B) but this is my first time with owning a sailboat with an inboard gas engine. Based on this forum I am actually kind of looking forward to making it work. Will come back with specific questions and pictures if I am unable to resuscitate it this weekend. One question I did have, the consensus seems to be to crank the engine with the raw water intake closed. Will that not damage the water pump impeller if the engine starts up ? How long can you run an engine like this with the raw water shut off ?
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
...
One question I did have, the consensus seems to be to crank the engine with the raw water intake closed. Will that not damage the water pump impeller if the engine starts up ? How long can you run an engine like this with the raw water shut off ?
The reason you keep the raw water intake valve closed is so you do not pump a ton of water into the engine and exhaust systems. If you pump too much water and the engine does not start then that water CAN flow back into the engine block - which is way worse then ruining a water pump impeller.
The water pump can run dry for quite some time but a $20 impeller is a lot cheaper then having to deal with flooded pistons, manifold etc.

Make sure you have clean fuel. Drain your carburetor - there is a bolt that allows all the gas to drain out - catch the gas and check for crud or water in there. Detach the gas feed line to the carb and see if you get fuel pumping in when you briefly crank the engine.
You need clean fuel, air and spark to make the A4 run. Having nice clean fresh lubricating oil does not hurt either.
Good luck.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:48 PM
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Electric or mechanical fuel pump? Pics here may help determine what you have. http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:48 AM
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Here is another useful link for seeing exploded views of various parts of the engine and accessories. I don't recommend purchasing from that site though. Moyer has the parts cheaper, readily available and great support staff.

http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/ca...rintoperators=
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:56 AM
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Good advice so far.
+1 about the mechanics! *Most* of them want nothing to do with an A4. They are likely to take one look and tell you it is hopeless and you need a diesel or they'll screw around with it and make it worse
If you ask around there may be one or two shops around that like dealing with them. I am lucky in my area we have an old time A4 shop around plus we are close to Moyer Since the A4 is really a 1920s era engine at heart with a few updates, asking around the local antique engine/tractor*/old powerboat scene might uncover a mechanic that would be good on A4s.

As for your current problem, make sure the plugs are dry and give her a shot of ether. If the engine runs briefly and stops, you aren't getting gas.


*while the A4 is LIKE a tractor engine and you may be told it IS one, it is most certainly not. If you look at the lack of a bellhousing and how the tranny connects, there is no way the A4 could ever be anything but a boat engine.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:51 AM
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Do you have an electric fuel pump, or a mechanical one?

If it is mechanical, you probably have to prime it - it has a lever for manually doing that.

If it is electrical, it likely is connected to an oil pressure sensing switch (OPSS), which prevents the fuel pump from pumping fuel until it senses enough oil pressure, which should happen with a few seconds of cranking. Check your OP when cranking and see what you get. If necessary, you can bypass the OPSS with a little jumper so that the fuel pump runs when you turn on the switch, just to be sure the carb is getting gas.

You say you're actually kinda looking forward to making it work - welcome to the club! You very well might find that tinkering with your A4 becomes a bit addictive.

At the very least, you'll find it very rewarding when you get the beast to awaken from its long slumber - which I pretty much guarantee it will - and you get it to run nice and smoothly.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:34 PM
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Great advice

Your positive attitude towards your new purchase is great as is the advice your getting. I may have missed the advice given already about old gas in the tank. I read where you added fresh, was the tank already empty before you added fresh? Make sure your entire fuel system is CLEAN and leak free, otherwise you'll be solving one problem only to find another. Good luck to you!
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:52 PM
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Thread hijack:
Whatever became of my old engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bold Rascal View Post
Your positive attitude towards your new purchase is great as is the advice your getting. I may have missed the advice given already about old gas in the tank. I read where you added fresh, was the tank already empty before you added fresh? Make sure your entire fuel system is CLEAN and leak free, otherwise you'll be solving one problem only to find another. Good luck to you!
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:08 PM
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Junaido,
Congratulations on your entry into the A4 and the C27 world. You will find wonderful advice here.

I am in Seattle area so still a bit too far away to run up there but if you want someone to talk to via phone, send me a private message.

mark
Fellow A4 powered c27 owner
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:45 PM
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I sailed my Cat 22 from Everette to Bainbridge in 2005. it took about 4 hours. I felt like I was in a pea-pod out there. The Subaru Maru shows no mercy, so be watchful. It gets calm sometimes on the sound, and the sails flopping around while sitting in the Ferry lane is just unnerving—not fun.
You don't want to get caught there if the new-to-you a-4 quits. I am guessing you are just moving the boat down closer to home. Maybe you can borrow a small outboard to cobble up on the transom for the remote engine emergency.
If you have time to really get it dependable, then do so before you go. Sounds like a fun trip.

Russ
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:45 AM
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Progress Report

So my boat partner and I went to Bellingham today armed with the knowledge acquired on this forum. After poking around a little we established that the fuel pump was the mechanical kind.
Jiggling the little bucket handle thingy on it 20 times produced very gratifying results. The engine fired up like a top with open choke and a little bit of throttle. It ran smoothly without any signs
of hesitation or misfiring. We ran it for about 5 minutes and then closed choke and it idles fine as well. However I did not see any water in the exhaust.
We did open the raw water intake immediately after engine started (assuming parallel to water hose is open, perpendicular is closed). The water temperature gauge was steady at 180.
Oil pressure was around 40. There is no tachometer. I also tried engaging the transmission and it does go forward and reverse but stalls after a while.
More worryingly, it felt really hot and smoky in the engine compartment. I am wondering if there is a problem with the water cooling circuit or exhaust.The exhaust pipe is covered with white cladding.
There is a small black hose entering the big pipe, I am guessing this is the hot water that will mix with the exhaust gases. The white covering ends and there is big diameter rusty pipe extension angled
downwards with a cap on it. Then an exhaust hose leading to the transom. I did not see any valve on the exhaust system so I am wondering if any of the following is a problem.
1. Water pump
2. Stuck thermostat
3. So much scaling and rust that its blocking the water from reaching exhaust.
4. The raw water intake valve handle is reversed (perpendicular is open instead of closed)

Some questions :

How much water should be coming out the exhaust pipe ?
What is the purpose of the rusty Y-junction in the exhaust pipe with the big cap on it ?
Will I have to prime the manual fuel pump every time I am starting the engine after a few days ?
How many time should I jiggle the fuel pump handle ?
Do these A4s have an over-temp alarm or engine overheating shutdown ?
Is 180 too high a water temp or am I needlessly worried about lack of water in exhaust?
Are the water pump impellers widely available at marine stores or a specialty item ?
Does the transmission need any kind of maintenance, fluid changes etc ?

Still, we are greatly encouraged by the ease of starting it. Any advice or guidance regarding the many questions is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Junaid
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Last edited by junaido; 03-03-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:24 AM
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A couple more pictures, water pump, exhaust etc.
It looks like an Oberdorfer water pump.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by junaido; 03-03-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:44 AM
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Talking

Before proceeding you need to troubleshoot the water problem. Plenty should be coming out that exhaust pipe. There is a danger of frying the exhaust hose if you run it dry too much. Disregard the temp gauge for now. The most common restriction point is the fitting where the water exists the manifold.Take the hose off at that point and start the engine briefly. If no water, work back to the thru hull via the pump. You may have to pull the thermostat. Otherwise your engine looks good.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:24 AM
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I agree with HC that the water needs to be addressed immediately. Everyone has their own approach based on their experience so I will throw in mine. I would do the first check as Hanley suggests. If you have flow then the wet/dry connection is probably the issue. Some boats have a valve in the exhaust but if it was closed I do not think the engine would run at all.
If no flow I would go back to the thru hull and start there. I know I have water outside the boat so where is the blockage? The blockages I have found were in the thru hull or the first fitting after it. Others have found the blockage at the exit from the water pump or the T-stat. Which ever way up proceed just do it one connection at a time and do not jump around. This is one of those " You know what they say about opinions etc" things. It does sound like you have a very serviceable A-4. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
The engine fired up like a top with open choke and a little bit of throttle. It ran smoothly without any signs
of hesitation or misfiring.
Cool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
However I did not see any water in the exhaust.
I would guess that since the engine hasn't run for a while, your water pump impeller could be disintegrated. First thing I would do is open up that pump and see what the impeller looks like and probably drop a new one in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
We did open the raw water intake immediately after engine started (assuming parallel to water hose is open, perpendicular is closed).
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
I am wondering if any of the following is a problem.
1. Water pump
That would be my first guess - shot impeller or something else wrong with the pump itself. But most likely impeller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
2. Stuck thermostat
You still would have water flowing through the engine and out the exhaust, whether the t-stat is open or closed - it affects only which part of the engine it circulates through. It does not shut off the water completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
3. So much scaling and rust that its blocking the water from reaching exhaust.
Yes, another possibility - or just a blockage somewhere, could be from a disintegrated water pump impeller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
4. The raw water intake valve handle is reversed (perpendicular is open instead of closed)
Doubtful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
How much water should be coming out the exhaust pipe?
Sorry for the lousy cell-phone video quality, but this should give you an idea.

[YOUTUBE]J-ts7GJ1oHg[/YOUTUBE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Do these A4s have an over-temp alarm or engine overheating shutdown ?
Only if you add it. Moyer sells an over-temp and low oil pressure alarm kit. I installed it on mine. It does not automatically shut the engine down, but it will make a loud buzz and alert you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Is 180 too high a water temp or am I needlessly worried about lack of water in exhaust?
180 is an optimal temp, but if you have no water in the exhaust, you definitely should be worried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Are the water pump impellers widely available at marine stores or a specialty item?
Easily available from our benefactor - check the online catalog at the Moyer Marine site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junaido View Post
Does the transmission need any kind of maintenance, fluid changes etc?
It is not really a "transmission", per se. It shares the engine oil - the oil pan is one big, long tub, and the reversing gear assembly is splashed with the engine oil. So change your oil every 50 hours of operation and as part of your winterization scheme, using good quality 30-weight detergent oil (Rotella is a favorite around here) and that's all it should need, unless it's not shifting right, then it might need a minor and relatively simple adjustment.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:41 PM
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Thanks for all the feedback. Definitely something is going on in the wet exhaust because its hardly spitting any water compared to the youtube clip. And the exhaust pipe/hose was pretty hot. It also occurred to me that the raw water intake might be clogged from the outside due to marine growth. The boat has been sitting for a while, who knows how much crud is on the bottom. Might try to heel her over and see if I can get a brush down there. Or maybe get it hauled and pressure washed, do the zincs etc., see what kind of shape the bottom is in after who knows how many years of disuse.
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Old 03-03-2012, 04:17 PM
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Talking

While still in the water you might try this: cobble a garden hose fitting to the thru hull and tr5y back blasting the outside strainer clear.
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