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Old 08-29-2012, 07:49 AM
team118 team118 is offline
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Bad ignition switch?

Hi guys.

Last weekend my wife and I set out for a weekend sail. Unfortunately the winds were directly against us, about 2 hours into it we decided to start the motor and try to get a better position offshore to get there.

When I tried to start the motor, I didn't get anything. No clicks, no nothing. It was almost as if the batteries were completely dead. I switched to BOTH on the battery switch, still no joy.

There was no way the batteries were dead. They had just come off shore power and the Xantrex charger..which works. I wasn't running anything except the chart plotter.

I had replaced the iginition switch at the end of last year, the wiring is all new, the coil is new.

I got online and found the instructions to hotwire the engine. When I did this, the motor turned right over and started no problem.

We decided to cancel our trip and headed back home. After docking, I turned off the motor and tried to start it. It started right up...

Am I right to assume that it wasn't the battery because the motor started using the bypass I rigged up? I haven't pulled the panel where the switch is, it is possible the wires are loose and once I started the boat I regained connection.

I was thinking about installing a permanent 'hotwire' setup in the engine bay.

When I did the hotwire, I clipped a wire from the coil to the alternator and the shorted the starter. Do I need to have both wires to hotwire the motor or can I just create a switch between the starter posts?

Thanks
Chris
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  #2   IP: 96.229.18.9
Old 08-29-2012, 08:48 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Lightbulb Connections~switch & grounds!

Chris, your on the right track. I'd check the switch and it's connections to be sure.
Another probable cause is the main ground on the block and batteries. Often a resistance will build up and not allow enough juice through for the starter. Did the selonoid click or just nothing?

Dave Neptune
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team118 View Post
When I did the hotwire, I clipped a wire from the coil to the alternator and the shorted the starter. Do I need to have both wires to hotwire the motor or can I just create a switch between the starter posts?
Chris-
The simple way to do the "hot-wire" is to connect a jumper wire from the large battery terminal on the starter solenoid to the positive terminal of the coil.

CAUTION: This is the very same thing as turning on the ignition switch,
so don't leave that wire installed except when running the engine or you will burn out the coil or kill the batteries.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:18 AM
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Chris, My concern with the alternator post is that the plate that surrounds is very touchy..I've grounded out those diodes before unknowingly..that plate is isolated from the alt. case by tiny little plastic washers on the posts..it is easy to short things across the plate and blow up the dioides that are there. Like Jerry, I like the big battery post on the starter, unless you've added another alternative to get directly to the battery (+) from the main switch. Then you can short the big post on the starter with the ingition post to engage the solenoid...I usually do this with a screwdriver, although sparks always bother me, so I have the $10 Actron trigger momentary start switch which has two alligator clips for the starter..this is also a great way to do start tests when your key is way up in the cockpit and you are by yourself.

Jerry's warning should always be remembered..jumping energizes the coil..it won't last very long with the engine off.

Since the switch itself is 'new', I'd take Dave's advice and check everything else..ground connections, purple to coil, etc.

Here is a first test..we know the coil works if jumpered..so, if you turn the ignition key "ON", do you get any voltage at the coil? - you'll just have to step thru each part of the system methodically until you find the issue.
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:39 PM
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I have been thru several "New" switches lately.
Pay good money, and they just aren't what they used to be..
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:52 PM
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Smile Push pull and starter button.

5 years ago I Picked up your typical rubber encased push button starter switch for a tractor, and a ignition push / pull as well...never a problem since on that end of things....and we (according to Hydro) we have "salt fog"...that was their excuse for a power failure.
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:13 PM
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I've got an old probably original pull out switch with a chrome push button starter. (shh no key) I guess you don't worry about it unless it's been a problem. It has never once caused a problem. I think if you get this set up right you shouldn't have much problem or the need to hot wire.

dvd
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:51 PM
team118 team118 is offline
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Talking

Hmmm....the instructions I read said to do the following...

Run a wire from the postive of the coil to the altenator
Then run a wire from the battery post of the starter to the 's' post of the starter.

When I did this with the key turned to the on position, the engine started immediately. I didn't leave the connection between the 2 starter posts connected once the engine started and I also disconnected the wires from the coil to the alternator...

Before this, turning the key did nothing. No click or anything.

The wiring from the key to the engine is all new 12 gauge wire and I have eliminated the old catalina harness' in favor of actual terminal blocks for each wire...oil pressure, temp, ignition, etc.

I'll check the ground wires. But how would I check the coil for energization? Would I put my multi meter on the 2 posts of the coil once I turn the key on?

I can do the things you're talking about...I just don't know WHAT you're talking about when you say them
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:05 PM
team118 team118 is offline
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Talking

Hmmm....the instructions I read said to do the following...

Run a wire from the postive of the coil to the altenator
Then run a wire from the battery post of the starter to the 's' post of the starter.

When I did this with the key turned to the on position, the engine started immediately. I didn't leave the connection between the 2 starter posts connected once the engine started and I also disconnected the wires from the coil to the alternator...

Before this, turning the key did nothing. No click or anything.

The wiring from the key to the engine is all new 12 gauge wire and I have eliminated the old catalina harness' in favor of actual terminal blocks for each wire...oil pressure, temp, ignition, etc.

I'll check the ground wires. But how would I check the coil for energization? Would I put my multi meter on the 2 posts of the coil once I turn the key on?

I can do the things you're talking about...I just don't know WHAT you're talking about when you say them
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  #10   IP: 8.19.13.19
Old 08-30-2012, 03:17 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team118 View Post
I'll check the ground wires. But how would I check the coil for energization? Would I put my multi meter on the 2 posts of the coil once I turn the key on?
I can do the things you're talking about...I just don't know WHAT you're talking about when you say them
Test coil + to ground ie the engine block. Meter black lead to ground meter red lead to coil +. You can also do a quick spark test with a short piece of wire coil + to engine. The electricity that goes through the coil gets to ground after flowing through the points or EI - hopefully that is.
Hope this helps.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team118 View Post
Hmmm....the instructions I read said to do the following...
Chris-
Instructions from WHERE?
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:57 PM
team118 team118 is offline
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I grabbed a post from this forum as to how to hotwire the engine.

I got it off my phone so I'd have to search again to find actual post.

It worked, but I'm not sure if I really needed to jump a wire from the coil to the battery post of the alternator...it seems like jumping the from the battery post of the starter to the other post on the starter is what actually turned over the motor.


As an after note.

I went out last night and again today with the original ignition switch still installed and the boat started right up. Now my boat is set up with 2 battery banks. A house bank and a reserve bank. Both are connected to a shore power 40 amp Xantrex Trucharge system with a 3 stage charging feature.

The alternator is connected directly to the house bank and when the engine is running, the volt meter at the engine panel shows close to 14 volts, so the system is charging the bank.

After a few hours of sailing, using only a radio and the chart plotter, the volt meter is down around 12 volts and I have to switch to BOTH to get the engine to turn over.



It seems that it isn't a switch problem but a power problem. The batteries are all about 4 years old. I did check the specific gravity of each cell this spring and while I can't give you the details they did fall within the norm.

It's hard to believe that the batteries would 'wind' down so quickly, and with only a radio and plotter running. I've run both for 24 hours straight and not had a problem, but that is earlier in the season.

All of the systems (lights, pumps, vhf, etc) are all seperated and I don't think there is any 'bleeding' or leaking of power.

I know this kind of trouble shooting can be tedious. How would I go about systematically checking things? I hate this kind of question, because it's so open ended...perhaps some suggestions to get me started.

Of course, it could be as simple as the batteries have run their course and I'll have to buy 3 new ones next spring. Which is fine.

Thanks guys!
Chris
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:07 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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I have a very simple way. Charge the battery up fully and then let it sit for a week. If it won't start a low compression 4 banger it's off the boat.

TRUE GRIT
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  #14   IP: 184.0.105.143
Old 08-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
I have a very simple way. Charge the battery up fully and then let it sit for a week. If it won't start a low compression 4 banger it's off the boat.

TRUE GRIT
Chris-
Along the same idea as John said...
I'd suggest you charge them to full, and then wait at least 24 hours then do a reading with your volt meter AT THE BATTERY posts.
You want a minimum reading of 12.7-12.8 volts.

Batteries will usually fail to start an engine at 12 volts or less.
This is dependent on the age of the battery.
A new, but depleted battery may only fail to start at a voltage as low as 11.5 volts.
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:40 AM
team118 team118 is offline
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Thanks John... I will charge them and disconnect shore power...

When I throw them overboard...I shall blame you!!!!!

Thanks for all the help and advice, I truly appreciate it

Chris
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