Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Electrical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-01-2010, 10:16 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
how to connect MOtorola 30 amp alternator?

I have a rebuilt and stored 30 amp motorola alternator that has not been on the boat for a number of years.

I would like to bring in as a spare with me on a boat trip to Maine this week
in case I have trouble with the fancy stuff that I installed and need a backup.

I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to the proper way to connect
it. There is a push on terminal with short pigtail and two lug based connections at least.


Thanks very much

Art
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 142.68.246.75
Old 08-01-2010, 10:20 AM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Art, some of us have posted pictures and discussions of the Motorola wiring in archived posts. You might want to try a Search using rigspelt for example. Sorry - rushing off for a sail or I'd look them up.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-01-2010, 10:39 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I just browsed some threads.

Apparently, the yellow wire goes to the plus side of the coil,
The output terminal is obvious, and the ground connection I assume
is thru the case bolting.

The regulator terminal is occupied by the regulator already.
There is a ground terminal, but again, I am assuming that it receives this via
the bolt?

Art
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-01-2010, 08:16 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Make sure that the "fancy stuff" does not include an external regulator unless you can and will bypass it in the event of using your spare which I believe does have internal regulation.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-02-2010, 07:22 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hanley

Will do . By the way, in another posting you mentioned not recommending
external 3 stage smart regulators anymore. I would be interested in hearing
your thoughts on this.

Thanks

Art
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 08-02-2010, 09:13 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,631
Thanks: 585
Thanked 335 Times in 261 Posts
motorola regulator

Art, If your stock Motorola regulator gives up the ghost, I found a bolt-on replacement that allows you to adjust the output voltage.

One of the problems with the stock regulator on the 35A Motorola is its output is only about 13.8 volts...way too low by today's standards for 12v systems. Compounding that problem on my boat is a passive diode type isolator, which ate another 0.7 volts. My batteries where only getting about 13.1 - 13.2volts. I have the regulator set to send about 14.9 to the isolator, giving me ~14.2v or so at the battery posts.

Hanley, I am interested too. I bought this $45 regulator instead of an external unit from Blue Sea,etc.. to keep my installation simple for now. If I were to get a fancier, i.e., higher output alternator if/when I need one, I'd look to get fancier charging equipment too.

Here is a link to the unit. http://www.ase-supply.com/product_p/trs-m5-197a.htm
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 08-02-2010 at 09:41 AM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 01:43 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Shawn - I understand your concerns about voltage. But keep this in mind: selection of alternator and voltage depend on how you use the engine. If you ran all day with the voltage you indicate, you would have boiled batteries. I run my engine 10 hours at a whack and therefore I set at about 13.5 volts. As for a new alternator, know that the stock accessory drive sheave will only support about 60 amps no matter how big an alternator you buy. Look at the charging curves from the Balmar catalogue. Too bad you Cat 30 guys cannot move your alternators up front like I did. All the best, Hanley
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 08-02-2010, 02:14 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,631
Thanks: 585
Thanked 335 Times in 261 Posts
Hanley...good points and I understand that long charge intervals would kill them at that voltage. I guess what I probably need is a smart charge controller, like the $75 Blue Sea unit.

I am usually running my motor as little as possible, runs up the creek are 50-60 minutes, or out to the bay about the same.

"Fancier " would be the 55 amp unit at Moyer, or similar. I have another 35 amp Motorola alt. as a spare though, and I only have one Group 27 house & a group 24 start battery. I have converted my anchor light and 80% of my cabin lighting to LED, so I don't really need any more juice!
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 08-02-2010 at 02:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 08-02-2010, 03:07 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,020
Thanks: 416
Thanked 372 Times in 257 Posts
Question Side bar

Hanley, you seem to be one of the resident electrical gurus and I would like to ask you a question. I have thought of upgrading my charging form stock and just found a Motorola 55amp. alternator under a pile of dune buggy parts.
It is set up for an external regulator and I am looking for a recomendation for an adjustable one. I tend to motor for 5~7 hours to my mooring ~ use the batteries for a few days (no refer.) ~ start the lil beastie for safety and sail off the mooring then shut her down for the sail home. I again start her for about 15~20 minutes to motor into the slip. There she sits usually for 2 weeks and the process begins again. I do not use shore power or a battery charger unless I leave something on and kill the "House side" 2-235 AH golf cart 6 volts. Note my start battery is a deep cycle grp 27 which usually stays off line except for the run to the island.
I would like a bit more than the stock alternator provides as sometimes when staying for a week my batteries will get low and I would like to speed up the recharge process (motor to the Isthmus for dinner or drinks ) of which I seldom need or do.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 03:52 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
If you have a 55 amp alternator set up for external regulation you have close to the ideal for your purposes. I think it was Jerry who posted the link to the adjustable regulator site. I would not use the multistage regulator. The multistage regulator is good for the boat that lives on a mooring, has lots of electrical demands, runs it's batteries down below 50%, and wants to recharge them in the minimum time without reaching over and turning that little screw and then remembering to turn it back after an hour of charging. I believe that the adjustable one voltage rate unit offers the best of flexibility, simplicity, and affordability.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 142.68.253.24
Old 08-02-2010, 04:03 PM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If you ran all day with the voltage you indicate [14.2], you would have boiled batteries.
Hanley, I'm no expert, but is it not true that boat charging systems before the smart chargers and external regulators ran at 14.2-14.4 volts and apparently did not boil off batteries, or so I understand? Don't automobiles run at that voltage? Seems that many boats still run that way? I agree there is no need to run charging systems that high after an initial equalization charge, and that on cruising boats it makes sense to have a means to float them in the mid-13's, but I'm still unconvinced about the mid-14's necessarily overheating batteries in all installations.

Nevertheless, I would feel better if I could convert this API 55 amp alternator to an external regulator so I could dial the output back away from shore power. We have a smart charger for dockside charging.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 206.40.166.218
Old 08-02-2010, 04:43 PM
Mark S's Avatar
Mark S Mark S is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marblehead MA
Posts: 421
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rigsy,

At what voltage does your API 55 amp alternator charge through the internal regulator? I don't recall off the top of my head what my API does, so I'll make a note to do that, but I remember noting that it's less than 14 volts.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 04:53 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
I would agree that 14.2 volts would probably be ok but Shawn indicated that he was setting at 14.9, losing .7 at the isolator (relying on it in effect to impose a fixed "regulation" on the system). I would not feel comfortable doing this and that is why I do not use isolators. The real question is - what voltage is actually being delivered to the batterys? Shawn indicated that his alternator was putting out 13.8 volts. I submit that would be fine if in fact it were being delivered to the batterys. In all probability he is losing voltage in the line as well as the isolator. Neil and I went around on this question of truck alternators putting out 14 volts with no apparent problem; but again, what is being delivered to the battery? Because I use maximum wiring in my system, I can deliver fairly close to alternator voltage to the batterys. When I set around 14 volts I have experienced fluid loss, and for this reason I have retreated into the mid 13 range.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 08-02-2010, 05:38 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,647
Thanks: 151
Thanked 1,266 Times in 848 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Neil and I went around on this question of truck alternators putting out 14 volts with no apparent problem;
To clarify, as I recall our discussion it didn't circle around a specific charging voltage but rather adjustable regulators vs. fixed ones. There's a popular belief that adjustable regulators are a better way to go, giving the operator more control.

Being old skool I'm not a member of that congregation. I figure the fixed output was determined by those much smarter than me and when countered with the suggestion of reduced battery life due to a fixed charge voltage I offered my truck charging system as an example of something that works well - - fixed regulation and many years of battery life.

Besides, I'm busy enough keeping my guests on domestic beer while keeping the imported stuff for me.

Footnote: the old skool fixed charging voltage for lead acid batteries was 13.8 volts, been that way forever before these young whippersnappers came up with all this new fangled electronic stuff. I should add that my alternator has a fixed voltage regulator and my lead acid batteries are over five years old and counting with no noticeable reduction in performance.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 08-02-2010 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 142.68.253.24
Old 08-02-2010, 06:34 PM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S View Post
Rigsy, At what voltage does your API 55 amp alternator charge through the internal regulator? I don't recall off the top of my head what my API does, so I'll make a note to do that, but I remember noting that it's less than 14 volts. Mark
Mark, it should be about 14.2 V according to the specs for that model. Mine seems to be charging at 14.6, which is higher than I would like. Took it to a reliable shop, but they say it's fine, and that they cannot set it lower. We are not doing any long distance cruising, so dealing with that is still on my back burner list.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 07:07 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Smile

Neil - I'm afraid that there are still some flies in your old "skool" ointment. First of all it is by no means certain that those who fixed the old charge rates were any smarter than you. Secondly, the old skool did not have to deal with the enormously complex electrical systems of today's cruising sailboats. Lastly, you have not addressed the matter of voltage losses from the alternator to the batterys which might be quite significant even in your old skool truck. BTW, a classy boat like the Catalina 30 should feature only the finest imported beer.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-02-2010, 07:22 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
a friend of mine worked at APC American Power Conversion.
They manufacture battery back up systems for everything from
PC's to Large central computing systems.

Battery technologies used include wet lead acid , Glass matt and Gel types.

Each type has a special charging algorithm consisting of at least 3 stages.

One of which is float. I am not a battery expert, but they know what they
are doing with the smart regulators

One caviat was that if the batteries are not kept fully charged, they
deterioriate.
SO will our marine deep cycle batteries.
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 07:37 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Art - All batteries will deteriorate in time but the one kept fully charged (without overcharging) will last the longest of all. Of course the batteries must be used for their purpose, and hence discharged; the first prize is therefore to discharge them as little as possible which then means having as many as possible to spread the load. It is also a fact that different types of batteries have different charging preferences. The "smart regulators", so-called, are really just devices for changing charge rates and setting charge periods, usually programable by the boat operator. Sometimes they have a "preset" program but I think they are still only as "smart" as the operator.
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-02-2010, 08:10 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
One other thought comes to mind, again, I am not a battery expert.

If a battery is allowed to remain discharged for a period of time
sulfation occurs (please don't ask me the chemistry). They can
sometimes be recovered by application of overvoltage higher than normal over
a specific algorithm, but it can be risky or dangerous to apply higher
than normal charge voltage. So it is best to not let the battery be left
in a discharged, or even partially discharged state for long.
Letting them get below 50 % is definitely not recommended by mfrs

Just an aside I happened to remember
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 08-02-2010, 08:19 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 8,647
Thanks: 151
Thanked 1,266 Times in 848 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
. . . . the old skool did not have to deal with the enormously complex electrical systems of today's cruising sailboats.
Huh??
Enormously complex??

What am I missing? Dealing with a variety of electrical systems daily, it's my opinion that it doesn't get much simpler than 12VDC, maybe a flashlight.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it . . .
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-02-2010, 08:30 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,792
Thanks: 12
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In case anyone is interested

here is a link to a basic battery tutorial I just found. This is only one of many
including some more technical.

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 09:24 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Huh??
Enormously complex??

What am I missing? Dealing with a variety of electrical systems daily, it's my opinion that it doesn't get much simpler than 12VDC, maybe a flashlight.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it . . .
Actually it does get simpler and I now know that I am an even older neanderthal than you - my boat formerly had gimballed kerosene lamps! Best Regards, Hanley
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 68.104.86.117
Old 08-02-2010, 09:35 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 19
Thanked 225 Times in 163 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S View Post
Rigsy,

At what voltage does your API 55 amp alternator charge through the internal regulator? I don't recall off the top of my head what my API does, so I'll make a note to do that, but I remember noting that it's less than 14 volts.

Mark
Mark-
I've got the AGI 55Amp and just did some voltage measurements yesterday as I continue to chase my hot Facet pump (another thread, another time)
Here's what the Alt is putting out on my vessel...

ALT: 14.28
BATTERY: 14.26

YMMV...
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 68.104.86.117
Old 08-02-2010, 09:36 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 2,883
Thanks: 19
Thanked 225 Times in 163 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
...I think it was Jerry who posted the link to the adjustable regulator site. I would not use the multistage regulator. The multistage regulator is good for the boat that lives on a mooring, has lots of electrical demands, runs it's batteries down below 50%, and wants to recharge them in the minimum time without reaching over and turning that little screw and then remembering to turn it back after an hour of charging. I believe that the adjustable one voltage rate unit offers the best of flexibility, simplicity, and affordability.
Here's the site for reference...
http://sterling-power-usa.com/advancedregulators.aspx
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 09:46 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,803
Thanks: 121
Thanked 153 Times in 128 Posts
Question

Jerry - Your low voltage loss between alternator and battery is most impressive. Can you tell us what sizes you use for the wire coming off the alternator (+ and -). Also what is your minimum size back to the battery? Thanks, Hanley
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Battery Switch: Field Disconnect Protection SEMIJim Electrical 12 04-30-2009 01:55 PM
Motorola 35 amp alternator (s) for sale cat30 For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts 2 10-28-2008 04:28 PM
Motorola Alternator not charging when installed pvenuti Electrical 5 07-28-2008 09:29 AM
motorola alternator troubles gone2ddogs Electrical 4 04-04-2008 04:34 AM
Motorola Alternator with Presolite Ingition policecentral Electrical 3 03-11-2008 03:06 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2019 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved