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  #1   IP: 67.164.114.158
Old 06-29-2007, 11:51 AM
mbettman mbettman is offline
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Seized engine turns over!...but....

We've got an Atomic 4 that has been sitting for eight years, part of that time it was submerged up to the starter housing. Needless to say it has water in the oil and rust all over. Up until this afternoon it was frozen solid. I used a (BIG) screwdriver to force the flywheel to turn through the starter opening (thanks, Don). It got easier and easier but I never got to a point where I could turn it without the screwdriver i.e. I could only turn it in very small increments. The Marvel mystery oil is in there now so we'll see if it gets easier later. Anyway, as we were turning the motor (clockwise facing the flywheel) we got to a point where there was more resistance and then a "clunk" as we kept turning the clunk would happen one or two more times and then all would be as normal. We then turned the motor the opposite direction (counter clockwise facing the flywheel). it went a full rotation (the flywheel) and then it "clunked" in the other direction. Eventually we could turn the motor without the clunk. The "clunk" really was between a clunk and a click... Sort of if you tap the back of the screwdriver on the starter housing. The sound is coming from just behind the flywheel, somewhere in the block. Any Ideas?
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  #2   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 07-01-2007, 06:30 PM
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The only source of a click I can think of might be if the reversing brake
band is hanging up for some reason (the reversing gear could suffer some
water damage from the same water that seized the rest of the engine). When
the reversing brake band tries to rotate with the gear cage assembly the
tabs on each side of the band contact the top of the oil pan (depending on
which direction you're trying to rotate it) and I've occasionally heard this
as a clicking sound as I'm rotating the engine back and forth.

Don
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  #3   IP: 69.112.146.80
Old 05-12-2008, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbettman View Post
Anyway, as we were turning the motor (clockwise facing the flywheel)
Isn't there a big arrow on the front of the engine that indicates I should be turning it counterclockwise?
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  #4   IP: 38.102.16.123
Old 05-13-2008, 08:15 AM
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The normal rotation of the engine is counterclockwise as you would be kneeling in front of the engine.

Don
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  #5   IP: 24.5.47.68
Old 10-26-2010, 12:58 AM
gkminder gkminder is offline
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Can't unseize engine

Our Islander 28 built in 1977 has an Atomic 4 engine that, although running a bit warm, worked. The transmission was screeching while in foreward until the boat ran for a few minutes, but other than that, we were able to use the engine to leave and enter our Marina here in Sausalito, California, just fine this past seven years, since we bought the boat, used. We've put on a new furler jib, new ports to replace the leaking ones, refinished the paper thin sole, repaired the alcohol stove with new parts, and the head, and taken it out to clean out and fix some soft spots in the bottom gel coat. We've replaced the heavy duty traveler for one that was on the original boat, fixed the rigging for easy reefing, and done some rewiring - so we've done all we want in the refurbishing department.
We thought about repowering, but since we're strictly a SF Bay Boat couple, decided to stick with the Atomic Four engine.
Previously we installed from Moyer Marine a new:
Raw Water stuffing gland; a battery charger; and a new water pump and its accompanying seals. We cleaned out raw water system with an acid bath; cleaned the spark arrestor, and replaced the spark plugs.
This Spring, the throttle began to not engage.
We called Moylan –then on their advice replaced the points.
We were getting a small or weak spark when the starter began, but because the starter was not able to engage the fly wheel, the fuses were "blowing,"
My spouse took the spark arrestor off and could see fuel going into the throat of the carburator (and the cylinder smelled like gasoline).
At the beginning, he was manually turning over the engine without turning off the raw water valve (and not getting the throttle to start).
After reading the manual, he then turned off raw water valve and tried to manually turn over the engine again. Still no throttle starting.
He installed a new fuel filter and a new fuel bowl. After checking the fuel bowl for water residue - no water in fuel.
After consulting Moyer Marine, he installed rebuilt carburator from them.
The engine was rotating manually, but the throttle not starting.
He replaced the condenser coil (from Moyer Marine).
Then, the engine wouldn’t turn over and seemed to be seized!!!
The starter began blowing fuses instead of turning over engine.
Read manual. Put coil on firewall, (instead of on engine) – fuses still blowing.
He took engine cover off to see if engine was turning over.
The engine now was not turning over manually.
He put in liquid wrench and tried turning engine over by hand with a big screw driver.
Slight movement happened, but he didn't want to force it, so then checked and even though oil not dirty or milky (no water), changed oil.
Took all four spark plugs out and put in liquid wrench.
Put transmission fluid in and acetone re community forum's advice.
Let soak for five days.
Went back and engine turned part way, (pistons and valves are moving) but not full revolution -before full revolution, it feels as if something is "stuck" or hitting "hard.".
Throttle still not engaging.
Spouse says he can't check compression unless engine turns so we don't know if valve's not having compression.
Haven’t taken off engine to look through oil pan or to see if valve is sticking at part revolution or to see if oil pump is not working.
Put more transmission fluid and acetone mix in engine.
Let soak for three days.
Have to go back tomorrow to see if it will turn.
Can we check valves without removing engine from boat? (A BIG pain...) (The engine bolts are rusted and removing them will be a big job)
We know the engine has to have compressed air, gasoline and a spark to run, and we have the spark, albeit weak, and the gasoline, so logically it seems it's the air compression that's missing.
So why did the engine "seize" when the condenser coil was installed?
Should we just give up and install a new short block and transmission, using the parts we've already bought?
As an extra dumb question, how can I tell what type of transmission I have?
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  #6   IP: 24.136.77.31
Old 10-26-2010, 10:08 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Question Suggestion & question?

gk, when you changed the oil did you find water at the bottom of the pan, since if you had a bit enchroach on the cylinders and it hasn't run it would not have emulsefied?
Try getting the engine to spin without trying to start! Remove the plugs and drop in a bit of the oil of your choice into the cylinders and place a towel over the plug holes and try spinning it with the starter. After and/or if you get it to spin crank it quite a few times but not for to long (don't heat up the starter) at any one time. If the engine begins to spin easily then be sure you have spark and then attempt to start. Double check the choke for proper operation.
It only takes a few drops in the cylinders to rust the rings to the block, this "spot" on the cylinders could be the point at which you feel it binding and it will slowly wear away.
At this point when you get it spinning a "thumb in the hole" compression check should let you know if the valves are operating OK.

Dave Neptune
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  #7   IP: 72.254.95.252
Old 10-26-2010, 10:22 AM
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GK-
After you have done Dave's suggestions and get the engine to turn, I'd suggest paying close attention to the CHOKE as he also mentioned.
On our updraft carbs it is very important that the choke fully closes when trying to start "cold".
As a check, take the flame arrestor off and LOOK to see it is completely closing when you try to start.
The lack of strong spark is also somewhere we should visit at some point, but let's get her turning first.

Report back here and we'll get her going again...
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  #8   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 10-26-2010, 02:02 PM
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I would add that I have done not a small amount of research on what is the best penetrating lubricant to free rusted metal parts.

One of my primary hobbies (yeah, I have too many) is restoring antique woodworking machinery and hand tools. So that involves lots of disassembly of rusty cast iron and steel things.

What I have learned, through experience, as well as from publications that have done actual comparison tests, is the following:

1. The best commercially produced penetrating oil for freeing rusty parts is Kroil, available exclusively from Kano Labs. Kroil beats P.B. Blaster. This is not a paid endorsement or anything; I have no connection to them other than that I have sent them money and they have sent me products that I have been very satisfied with. They also have phosphoric acid rusty metal primer/stabilizer and anti-rust coatings. More than worth your time to check them out.

And

2. The best penetrating lubricant for freeing rusty parts is a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid (ATF). Mix it up and then use it - don't keep too much of it around, unless you keep it in a tightly sealed metal container, because the acetone will evaporate out. This has the benefit of being easily available at your local big box store and cheaper than Kroil or any other product.

And forget WD40 - that stuff is so overused. It's a very light-duty evaporating lubricant and doesn't do squat when it comes to freeing rusty metal.
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  #9   IP: 71.252.30.109
Old 10-26-2010, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
I would add that I have done not a small amount of research on what is the best penetrating lubricant to free rusted metal parts.

One of my primary hobbies (yeah, I have too many) is restoring antique woodworking machinery and hand tools. So that involves lots of disassembly of rusty cast iron and steel things.

What I have learned, through experience, as well as from publications that have done actual comparison tests, is the following:

1. The best commercially produced penetrating oil for freeing rusty parts is Kroil, available exclusively from Kano Labs. Kroil beats P.B. Blaster. This is not a paid endorsement or anything; I have no connection to them other than that I have sent them money and they have sent me products that I have been very satisfied with. They also have phosphoric acid rusty metal primer/stabilizer and anti-rust coatings. More than worth your time to check them out.

And

2. The best penetrating lubricant for freeing rusty parts is a 50/50 mix of acetone and automatic transmission fluid (ATF). Mix it up and then use it - don't keep too much of it around, unless you keep it in a tightly sealed metal container, because the acetone will evaporate out. This has the benefit of being easily available at your local big box store and cheaper than Kroil or any other product.

And forget WD40 - that stuff is so overused. It's a very light-duty evaporating lubricant and doesn't do squat when it comes to freeing rusty metal.
+1 - and thanks for providing a link for Kroil...I've been trying to figure out where to get that stuff!!
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  #10   IP: 142.68.249.179
Old 10-28-2010, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
What I have learned, through experience, as well as from publications that have done actual comparison tests, is the following: 1. The best commercially produced penetrating oil for freeing rusty parts is Kroil, available exclusively from Kano Labs. Kroil beats P.B. Blaster.
Interesting. I got turned on to Kroil at the start of our A4 refit by a boater who works at a big automotive service center. Worked wonders, sometimes taking 3 days for real toughies. One can goes a very long way.
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  #11   IP: 142.68.249.179
Old 10-28-2010, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkminder View Post
Can we check valves without removing engine from boat? (A BIG pain...) (The engine bolts are rusted and removing them will be a big job)
Valves: can remove the valve cover under the manifold to see the lower ends of the valves (stems and tappets), can remove the head to see the upper ends of the valves and remove them (but read up on that first if get into it that deep).

Rusted engine bolts: that can sometimes be a reason to pull an engine, if the engine bed and mounts need refitting.
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