No Power and no RPMs

[Marian Claire]

RobH2: I do not want to beat a dead horse here but did you run the engine with the hot section removed? Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

No, but I will. Unless I'm mistaken, an exhaust constriction would not create zero compression in cyl 1 and 2. Someone replaced/serviced the exhaust recently as the bolts are shiny and new and the hot section of pipe is new. My problem is I can't ask questions about the boat as the previous 80-year old owner died. I'm on my own here as to what's been done.

We delivered the boat for 51 hours without the wet muffler attached and she was really pumping the water and exhaust out. I think it's clear but I'll take your advice and run it with the pipe off. However, I'll wait till I replace the head gasket. My head gasket appears to be blown and it also looks like an old paper one. I'd like to have a good graphite one in there anyway as the old style are apparently ticking time bombs.

Rob

[thatch]

RobH2,
As a word of preemptive caution, since it looks like you may be heading toward cylinder head removal, take it slow, use plenty of penetrating oil and read everything you can on this site dealing with that job. It normally takes patience, time, tapping (with a small hammer) and more patience to get most A4 heads off. You're doing fine so far.
Tom

[Marian Claire]

RobH2: I understand and only want to make the process clear. As posted do go slow with the head removal, tap tap pry pry. PB blaster is got for loosening the nuts. I used wood shims to slowly break loose the head on the MC. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

Thanks for your cautioning me. I have and know PB Blaster. Is that sufficient for the 'penetrating oil' aspect of the job? I also like the wood shim idea. It sounds less damaging than screwdrivers and you can make them as thick as you want/need to in order to lift the head. I'd guess you need a screwdriver to get it started though. I ordered the head gaskets tonight.

I've been reading all evening. There are a lot of posts about heads. My main worry is getting the studs out. My engine looks bad. I'll make her pretty one day but when I first saw the engine I was afraid. I bought the boat 'for the boat - not the engine' and figured I'd replace the engine. But, if I can get this baby running and throw some love and paint on it I'd like to try. Below is a photo of what I'm dealing with.

[Marian Claire]

I think PBB is better than WD-40 or even MMO for this application. The head can be removed and reset with the studs in place. What is that white stuff between #1 and #2 ? You’re a-4 looks very serviceable.
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

I asked the same question. The white stuff is apparently some kind of zinc stuff that someone was using for a repair and spilled it on the head.

I'd like to paint my engine as I'm working on it. Is there a brushable paint that will work on them? I don't plan to pull it unless I'm replacing it with a diesel engine. I ultimately want to do some bluewater cruising and the diesel will give me twice the range for the same amount of fuel. But for now since I just bought the boat and cash is tight I'm hoping to get this Atomic running adequately. Good to hear that you think it looks serviceable.

Rob

[sastanley]

Rob,
Thanks for posting some pics.

All things considered, this is not too bad a job from what I understand...I am fortunate that I haven't had to do one on an Atomic 4, but I know the head on my engine has been off at least twice already, prior to my ownership.

Cosmetics are easy...don't stress over that right now. What I did was, as I removed each component for inspection/overhaul, I cleaned it up and painted it. For the block, I spent an afternoon scraping with a stiff brush and wiping with acetone and then a high temp rustoleum style primer prior to painting..then I re-installed the major pieces I had removed prior. Go check out this thread (skip all the garbage and see the important post before & after of Shawn's motor) - I was here 12 months ago.

Be observant when you remove the head, and snap pics...details in the pics may reveal the failure of the head gasket which we can analyze.

Good luck removing nuts & studs and be patient - if you break one, there are repair tips, & of course parts, available here. Mine has a repair stud in it too already.

[RobH2]

Wow, dramatic 'Before and After'... There is hope for me!
I'm hoping someone has had my head off. It would certainly help me to get the studs out if they've been turned before.

I'll be posting about my progress.

[sastanley]

Hang in there Rob....there is plenty of help here. I did not buy my boat for the motor either, but I trust it now.

I was exactly where you are in October/November 2008.

[off topic] Is that the Pride of Baltimore in your avatar? Nice pic!!! [/off topic]

[RobH2]

You are good...yes, that is the Pride. I've been a professional commercial photographer for 25 years. I have a lot of sailing photos.

Thanks for the encouragement. It really want to trust the engine. My last boat was a Columbia 8.3 which had it's A-4 replaced by a Honda 9.9 outboard by the time I bought her. That thing was solid as a rock for the 3 years I had it. Nothing is as reliable and maintenance free as a Honda. If I can get the A-4 somewhere close to the trust I had in the Honda I'll be happy. I can't wait to get the water in the marina turned on so I can wash my engine compartment, start painting it and then start painting the A-4. I hope mine looks as good as yours one day soon.

[captain kenny]

Now it is time to remove the head. It is either the gasket, burnt or poor seating valves or rings. Once the head is off hold your hand over each cylinder and rotate the engine you should be able to feel suction. Visually inspect the valves. Have you purchased the Moyer manual?? You're gonna need it. You are also gonna need to order some parts. Dont give up.

[thatch]

Shawn,
I had heard about your "cleanup" on your motor but hadn't seen the pics until now. All I can say is wow!.
Tom

[RobH2]

Yes, I have the manual. In some respects it's really good but in others it's missing what could be very helpful diagrams or photos. I'm not timid about tinkering on engines so I'm sure it will go fine. Apparently my biggest concern is not snapping off studs.

Let me ask more about the cylinder suction. How strong should it be? Is it either present or not present? In other words, if I detect any suction does that mean my rings are probably functional?

Since my other two good cylinders develop between 90 and 110 readings on the compression gauge is it fair to assume that the other rings are about the same condition? Can the cylinders wear at different rates such that one or two cylinders can loose seal while the other are fine? I would think that the parts would wear at about the same rate and if one set of rings got sloppy then they'd all be getting sloppy.

I am eager to see how the valves seat or see if the seats are carbonized. Is there an easy way to clean the seats without damaging them or doing a full machine shop seat job?

I won't give up. I have too many good people here helping me. This is one of the best forums I'm participated on. It's great to have this resource.

Rob

[Marian Claire]

Just a pic to give you an idea of what you might find. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[RobH2]

Yikes, and to think that you put that all back to gether and it runs...

Don't you love technology?

[David Masury]

You may have hit upon the problem... you stated that you had no valve clearance in cylinders 1 & 2. I can tell you from experience that that will lead to burnt valves very quickly, thus reduced compression etc.

If you have access which by your description you do, pull the head and to a valve job. Generally speaking it takes a good long morning to do it. If the valves aren't burnt, then cleaning and lapping the valves in with a new head gasket will do wonders. GIve yourself a little extra cleanance when you set the valves for the first tens hours or so, then readjust to proper clearances.

David

[RobH2]

Are you implying that a "valve job" is something I can do myself in the water? I know I can get a valve compressor and remover them but I didn't think there was anything I could do with the valves or seats without a machine shop.

What specifically are you suggesting? I'm curious...

[keelcooler]

Can be done in the boat,should not be a problem. Your seats may be OK. The valve however could be burnt. You can have the shop dress or purchase a replacement. You may want to order all new stronger springs. If you need a hand call me, I have the proper valve spring tool. Not all spring compressors will work in that space. I found this out the hard way. I can drop it off or mail.

The 190 head hot spot does not appear to be a concern. You can clean it up when it's off. Looks like a newish manifold and high amp alternator. The valves can be lapped by hand in the boat. Motor looks late mid 70's not late 60's (sheet metal flywheel cover). Will work for gas money and Baltimore crab cakes, John 703 760 8136. Technology is not a word that comes to mind when working on the a4.

[thatch]

RobH2
A4 engines have a high nickle content marine block which is much more durable than a normal automotive block. Because of this the valve seats will hold up much better in most cases. After removing the valves and placeing them in a numbered rack I use a Scotchbright pad to clean the seats to determin how much cleanup they will need. The valves can be cleaned for inspection on a wire wheel.
At this point I have to go see the tax lady.(nothing to do with the valve jod)
Tom

[RobH2]

Ok, I've started. I'll tackle the valve issues once the head is off. I'm glad to hear I can do it in the boat. And yes John, I may just take you up on that. Gas and crabs are a fair barter. Do you live in Baltimore? If so, what area? I'm in Towson and the boat's in Fells Point.

I PBB'd the bolts today and spun them all off. Two brought the studs along. I PBB'd them heavily again and left it sitting till tomorrow. I tapped on all of the studs (nuts on the ends) and then tried to tap a screwdriver in. No go. I didn't want to drive the screwdriver too agressively.

The photo below may be some indication of why I was overheating a bit. Holey moley... do I have to get a whole new thermostat kit now? They are kind of expensive and I'm working on fumes for dollars right now. I'd like to just clean up the housing and drop a new reasonably priced thermostat in for now. Later when the funds are better I can upgrade. (EDIT) I'm reading and answering my own questions. It appears that replacing just the thermostat I have now is about $80. It looks like I'm better off just biting the bullet and getting a kit.

Glad to learn that the engine is a little newer than I thought. However, I don't know why a 1968 boat would get a new motor just a few years later. Odd. Yes, the alternator is 120 amp and the manifold is newish. That's why the exhaust, at least the hot part, was so clean when I inspected it yesterday. Some attention has been paid to the exhaust in the not too distant past.

It's a good thing I'm doing this head job. When I got the alternator off I found that the clamp for the water hose from the pump to the center of the block had rusted off and was gone. That was a time bomb.

Lastly, is there a thermostat gasket from an auto parts shop that will work. I placed my order for head gaskets last night and called this morning at 8AM to add the gasket but was told it was too late. As soon as you click "Submit" for an order it's a done deal. I just wanted to save the duplicated shipping charges.

[Kurt]

That thermostat looks unlike the one I have in my A4. At any rate, thermostats clean up nicely when placed in a pot, cup, etc. of vinegar to soak for 12-24 hours. Mine looked terrible and now looks new after a vinegar soak.

[thatch]

RobH2,

I photocopy easy to make gaskets (new ones), measure their thickness and note what kind of material they are made of. The photos are kept in a kit with bulk gasket material, hole cutters and some x-acto knives. In the case of your thermostat cover the gasket is made of a fiber material that is .030" thick.
An effective way to help break the bond between the cylinder head and the studs is to tap around the circumference of the stud nuts (I use a drift rather than a screwdriver) to crush the rust which may or may not be there depending on how well the stud was sealed into the block.
Take it slowly, Tom

[RobH2]

I'm off to get some Vinegar Kurt.

Tom, thanks for the tapping around the circumference tip. How softly to I need to tap to prevent damage to the head? I'm sure it's tough but I'm sure you just can't wail on it without hurting something.

Lastly, I'll make a gasket. That sounds like a good skill to have anyway. I have some nice punches for holes and I guess I can get gasket material at an autoparts store.

[thatch]

HobH2,
The holes in the cylinder head are drilled at the factory at 13/32" so there is actually a decent amount of stud clearance. Despite this clearance, rust tends to expand to fill the gap and normally needs to be loosened up a bit. At this point it would only be fair to warn you that sometimes people glue these heads on a little too vigorousely and they can be a bear to unstick.
Tom