Atomic Four Rebuild??

[Chappy]

Hello everyone,
I am new here and recently bought a Catalina 27 with an A-4 in it.
I love to work on mechanical things, and enjoy getting my hands dirty.
( so to speak )
I have read a lot of your posts about the a-4 and see that a lot of you like them, and rely on them.
I am looking into the thought of rebuilding this one and would greatly appreciate any info and help that you all can offer.
It is free turning so i know it is not seized, and i have taken the gooseneck and cyl head off already.
( YUCK!! )

This poor engine must have been used and abused, or someone ( former owner ) didn't care about it much... it is severely rusted and in need of TLC.
what should I look for and what is the easiest way to rebuild this engine?
as i am on a fixed income.
There are a cpl things missing, I think 1 is part of the fuel pump? / filter?
I'm not sure, I know you like to see pictures and I have taken a few and will attach them here.
I don't have pictures of the parts / area that are missing but i will take some later to see what you think.
thanks in advance to all.
~E~

[ArtJ]

You should peruse this site and enjoy the benefits of some of the engine
experts here.
Ask some questions and check responses as well.
Engines in worse looking shape than yours have been
brought back without needing rebuilding. The Atomic 4 is very robust

Good luck
Art

[Marian Claire]

Chappy: Welcome to the forum. A few suggestions. Buy the Moyer manual and a can of PB Blaster. Take pics as you rebuild. Bag, tag, label and organize every part as it comes off. Get pics and label all the wiring and hoses. Learn the language of the A-4 by viewing the “on line catalog”. Helps when you order parts and when describing problems. Clean, clean and clean some more.
Did you get any compression #s before removing the head? I question a full rebuild unless there is some indication of major problems. What is your intended use for the boat, out of the marina twice a month or a trip to the Bahamas? Dan S/V Marian Claire
PS: size your pics to 640x480 to fit the page better.

[hanleyclifford]

Welcome to the forum. As Art indicated, you are in the right place. First step: order your personal copy of the Moyer Marine Overhaul and Service Manual from the online catalogue on this site. Also it mght be better if you could resize pictures a bit smaller. Looking forward to talking and helping if we can. Regards, Hanley

[rigspelt]

You're mechanically inclined, so forgive me if I bring up the obvious. If it was me, I'd probably remove all the parts that can be removed, being very careful not to break off bolts and nuts in the process. I find it much easier to inspect parts in the shop than in the boat. Take lots of photos along the way. Note the condition of the spark plugs. numbering them 1 to 4 from front (flywheel) to back. Taking parts off makes it possible to get items like the carb, fuel pump, water pump, starter, alternator, shaft coupling and stuffing box checked and rebuilt.

That's the approach I took. Our engine was running when we started our refit. I was able to check compression prior to refitting, which among other things helped me decide that I did not need to go inside the block and work on the bottom end or valves.

Looks like you don't have much room to work on the carb/fuel pump side, which is going to be important. That carb looks pretty rusted. The fuel pump should be just aft of the carb. Getting the engine out of the boat and into a shop at home would be nice if you have the resources and that approach seems necessary. Check the engine mounts: if they need revision then that might be something that tips the balance toward pulling the engine.

Not being a mechanic, I don't know how to check a non-running engine with unknown history to determine how much tear-down is necessary. If you do pull the engine, then when you get it running on the bench you can do some tests to find out if you need to tear into the block prior to reinstalling it in the boat.

I recommend getting the MMI Manual and Notes books. Spend a lot of time reading through the archives here on this site, and copy the best stuff into electronic notes for later reference, starting with posts by Don Moyer. Organize notes into systems: fuel, cooling, exhaust, ignition, charging, head/block, transmission, prop/shaft.

Any pictures of the aft (transmission) end? And photos of the head and pistons with the head off?

What do the head studs look like? Did any come out when the head came off?

[thatch]

Chappy,
All of the input so far has been good. Having owned a Cat 27 in the past, I'm well aware of the limited access to the engine, therefore I strongly recommend pulling the A4 for it's freshening up. Since you are probably new to this site, you might want to take a look at the "Moyer Calander Pinup" motors, That'l get the the cleanup juices flowing!
Tom

[Chappy]

Thanks a lot folks.
I got the head off yesterday with a friend and the pistons are all blackend and the lifters look shot, i will be adding some pics after i get a chance. doing this all on my own pretty much, just getting advice and help on the major ( big ) parts.
i unbolted the motor mounts ( JUNK ) the rear mount by the tranny on the alt side fell out al together.
the motor is ready to come out, but the tranny will not disconnect.
what did I do wrong? I may have unbolted the wrong place, there is a plate behind the engine with I think 5 bolts hat came out, and it is round ( plate that is ). but I still cannot disconnect the engine from tranny.
( HELP PLEASE)
also there don't appear to be any fluids left inside the engine.
oil, antifreeze, tranny fluid, ect...
not sure if it was drained for a reason or if thats normal?
sorry for the size of the pictures, not sure how to resize.
I will keep trying tho.
So far I really like my Catalina and am trying to come up with possible names for it. but that will come later.
the interior needs a touch up, but not major. some of the cushions are missing. the wood work needs to be stained or replaced.
just figured out how to setup the jib, after searching for it ...
tucked away in cubby hole.
so my question I guess, is how to pull engine away from tranny?
So I look forward to hearing more ideas and helpful tips, thanks all.
~E~

[hanleyclifford]

Sounds like you may have disconnected some wrong bolts. The transmission on this engine is integral to the engine. The point to disconnect is the coupling, engine to drive shaft. On a direct drive there should be only 3. On a 2:1 reduction installation there will be 4. If you unbolted the plate in front of the coupling, put it back together and do the coupling. The two pieces can be rusted together. Apply the PB blaster and do a few light lateral whacks. Resist the temptation to drive a chisel between the two halves unless you have no choice in which case you may end up replacing or resurfacing one or both. Keep talking to us.

[Marian Claire]

What HC said. You can also try a thin putty knife to tap/drive between the plates. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[lat 64]

Chappy, Hi.
I've been studying your photos. I agree the carb looks rough but I see other rust that seems to be recent bloom. probably from the last owner just shutting the boat and losing interest. I see not-rusted water-jacket plate bolts(stainless?). This suggests someone has been doing some upgrades.

Don't worry about black in the cylinders. It's probably just from running rich while it was losing it's tune for the last time.
I'm curious about your call on the lifters. That's usually not an issue with these engines. Can you take a picture for us of them? old-style lifters like these can be resurfaced on the cam end but if the shaft is worn, the lifter bore may be very worn too.

Russ

[hanleyclifford]

Hopefully you have either not yet removed the lifters or if you have, you have identified which hole each came from. Not getting each one back in its original hole is a frequent cause of "stuck" lifters. This is also true for valves and other parts as well.

[Chappy]

Ok, i guess i messed up on the bolts to pull.
thanks for letting me know, i think i tried the 3 bolts but i couldnt get them to turn at all.
i may need my friend to stop by and give an assist.
all that happend when I tried to loosen them was the shaft kept turning instead. lol
I tried to use another wrench to apply pressure to hold the shaft still, but it still turned and not the bolts.. I have disconnected the wires on the alt., the starter, the (oil temp gauge) thing,...on the right hand side of the engine..
in the pictures i have on here from the first post the wire goes to the round item is just past the flywheel cover ( lower right).
Once I do get this sucker out, what should be the first thing I should look at as far as tearing down the engine?
I am going to completely rebuild from ground up. so to speak.
I am doing it this way just so I know for a fact what all the spec's are going to be and where everything is located, and not have any doubts of what is this thing or what does that do?
Wasnt able to take pics today as planned...
I will be back at it tomorow for more punnishment tho, haha.
Thanks again for the info and ill keep you all posted.
I can't wait to get it all back together and hear how well she runs!!

[Chappy]

here are pics i was trying to add yesterday.
forgive me I don't know how to adjust the size of the pics.

[hanleyclifford]

Chappy - Resist the temptation to start taking things apart until you have received your manual from Moyer Marine. As for the drive coupling, start by smothering the three bolts with PB blaster. There are numerous approaches to removing the bolts. If you have the room a good way is to hold the coupling, not the shaft, with a large pipe wrench while working the bolts with (ideally) something six-pointed. If push comes to shove consider cutting the heads off with a hack saw. This is tedious (you will become familiar with tedium). All the best, Hanley

[67c&ccorv]

You have your work cut out for you - but, as Hanley says...wait for the manual before you begin jammin' on the motor!

[rigspelt]

Originally Posted by Chappy

here are pics i was trying to add yesterday.
forgive me I don't know how to adjust the size of the pics.

You've got the right resolution (72 dpi) but see if you can adjust the longest edge down to maximum 600 pixels. They are about 1200 pixels right now, which floods even my large screen.

Originally Posted by Chappy

all that happend when I tried to loosen them was the shaft kept turning instead. I tried to use another wrench to apply pressure to hold the shaft still, but it still turned and not the bolts.. I have disconnected the wires on the alt., the starter, the (oil temp gauge) thing,...on the right hand side of the engine..

Try not to score the propshaft. Sometimes a guy can wedge a block of wood at the propellor to stop the shaft. Be patient getting the shaft coupling disconnected from the transmission: that's a critical connection, and you will become very familiar with it and everything from there to the propellor during reinstall. When the engine is out, you will want to pay special attention to all those bits while you have room to work in that part of the boat.

Try posting some pictures of the transmission, shaft coupling, and stuffing box.

Originally Posted by Chappy

in the pictures i have on here from the first post the wire goes to the round item is just past the flywheel cover ( lower right).

The horizontal round item sticking out of the engine just behind the flywheel and in front of the carb is an oil pressure sender. You will want its port into the block later. There are two more similar ports along that side, going aft. The fuel pump is further aft of the carb.

Originally Posted by Chappy

Once I do get this sucker out, what should be the first thing I should look at as far as tearing down the engine?
I am going to completely rebuild from ground up. so to speak.
I am doing it this way just so I know for a fact what all the spec's are going to be and where everything is located, and not have any doubts of what is this thing or what does that do?

First thing I would do: lots of reading.

Some philosophical thoughts, mostly learned from others, some from experience:

Put parts and their bolts into big ziplock bags and label them while taking them off in the boat, and later in the shop. There will be two groups of projects: inspecting each part individually and deciding whether to refurbish it or replace it, and working on the big stuff in the engine block itself.

Couple of keys with all aspects of the tear-down and rebuild: patience instead of brute force, lots of research prior to each step, and document as you go. Don's manual is excellent, and his supplementary notes are worth the price too, especially for a major overhaul like you are contemplating.

If previous owners have not fiddled too much with the installation you are working on, then take careful note of everything the original boatbuilder did: everything was that way for a reason, including location of items in space around the engine. Sometimes modern practices have replaced older ones for a reason, but it is important to logically work out the differences during a refit.

I find it helps to have music around when I'm doing that kind of work.

[Chappy]

Thank you all very much, I find all your input very helpful.
I have been putting each nut/bolt back in its original holes if possible, as not to lose any of them.
~
I am ordering a set of new gaskets and sals from local Marine supply store. and I am happy to say I have successfully removed all the motor mounts with out breaking anything.
~
Now I am waiting for my friend to call me so I can get him to help me pull the bruit out of its cubby hole and get her home and start the real work.
~
~
I dont see where I amsupposed to adjust the resolution for the pics.
Is it on the ( reply to thread page?)
As I said I am kinda dumb when it comes to this stuff.
Sorry.
I found some wiring that the last guy was cutting stuff, so now I think I am in a bind, I have no idea what some of the stuff goes to that he cut...
other stuff is obvious like wiring for radio, or gauges or cb radio.
thats minor stuff... but when it comes to the engine compartment there should not be any broken or missing wirse and I have found a few.

[sastanley]

Chappy,
Welcome. You have some work cut out for you, but we'll get you there.

Picture resolution: That is done on your PC, and not related to the site. Assuming you have a Windows PC, a simple program like MS Paint (comes as part of Windows) or a more robust free utility, Paint.NET is what I use. I pull the pics off the camera, put them onto my hard drive, open them up in Paint.NET and resize them before uploading to the Moyer site. Once you figure it out, it's easy as pie.

Separating the prop shaft from the motor - If you go check out my thread titled "Indigo", starting on post #64, there are some pictures in there of the shaft/coupling area. I recently took my prop shaft out and it should have some good pics for you to see what you are working with..even though your goal is exactly the opposite (removing the motor and leaving the shaft for now), the principles for separation are the same. You only need to get those 3 bolts loose and separate the shaft half of the coupler from the engine half. I found that an 18" pipe wrench is just big enough to get around the coupler to hold it still and try to get those three 3/8" fine thread bolts out. (9/16" wrench) - However, a pipe wrench will tear up the couplings, so try another method to hold it still if you can. I recall bracing the coupler using a screwdriver wedged in two of the bolt heads, and finally they broke loose one at a time.

Someone else here told me once (I think it was thatch, ) & this is a paraphrase - "rust is a terrible glue, except when trying to separate old rusty parts."

[lat 64]

Wow!
I stand corrected. Those head bolts are rather flakey.
I had more rust on top than the rest of the engine too. I think a deck leak was my problem, but I think the dip around the plugs keeps water in place and it promotes rust.
This engine is somewhat different than auto engines. If you go all the way, let the gang here coach you on putting the pistons and rods back in in the correct order and orientation.
I am an experienced engine builder and I still had to refer to photos for the assembly. The camera helps see things that we miss when we are tearing things apart.

Russ

[Chappy]

I finally got it all way out of cubby.

Here are some pics taken today.

[Chappy]

ok the pic of the exhaust manafold im showing because i dont know if thiese are cracks all the way through or just rust...

[sastanley]

Ah, Chappy...much better on the pic sizes..And you were obviously able to separate the couplings from your post #20 pics.

My boat (new to me about 18 months ago) came with a Moyer aftermarket manifold.

You may find that some of these major components are going to need to be replaced..sometimes no amount of TLC will allow recovery from years and years of neglect. Moyer Marine has either a source for most or in the case of the manifold, got a supplier to start casting them. You can even get used shortblocks from Moyer Marine. In the long run it will still be tons cheaper than a diesel re-power, so don't fret too much. In some cases you may also be pleasantly surprised that a wire brush/sandpaper/acetone and elbow grease can revitalize a motor component and make it look brand new!

[High Hopes]

Hi Chappy and welcome to A4 land. Glad you are here.

I "re-worked" my engine - I fixed or replaced everything except I did not drop the crankshaft. My compression was good and it is a relatively newer model with the block cast in 1974.

I had to replace the head, the manifold, the water pump, the thermostat housing and thermostat, the tee fitting, the hoses and all other fittings, the ignition coil (and bracket), the ignition wires, the plugs, the 12v wiring. I rebuilt the carburetor and distributor, repaired six oil leaks, three water leaks and two gas leaks. I reworked the fill and drain ports and fittings for water and oil. There are other things I do not remember.

My engine was already running and in working order when I tackled it. The piston and cylinders looked good.

I hate to be a wet blanket, but would Don's swap engine deal be a cheaper way to go?

Oh yeah, new valve cover plate & bolts, paint, lots of cleaning de-gunk, machine shop fees, band aids, acid flushes . . . LOTS of reading and internet posting.

.. alternator strap repair, lifting bracket mod, alternator bracket mod, new gas line fittings, . . ..

- Steve

p.s. Reversing gear pin mod (mine was weird)

[67c&ccorv]

Originally Posted by Chappy

ok the pic of the exhaust manafold im showing because i dont know if thiese are cracks all the way through or just rust...

That exhaust manifold is history!

[Chappy]

My friend and I pulled the engine up out of the boat, it is sitting in the entry way of the boat.
any way found out just how heavy the sucker really is,
There is still oil in the crank case. no water any where. ( not sure if thats good or bad.)
going to ask the marina guys tomorow if they can use there hoist / crane to lift it out the rest of the way and into my friends truck.
sorry no pics tonight.
more tomorow.
I need a good back massage now!
any way im off to watch some tv....