Cat.27 Access Mod - Mystery Sound Access

[rpowers]

OK, I bit the bullet and took a running saw to my Catalina 27 interior to gain access to the front three valves.

Finally I will be able to get in and change the three remaining springs and get to the bottom of the elusive mystery sound.

After eliminating drive train, and other hypotheses, I am convinced that the valves are making the noise.

So, as you can see, I removed the engine door frame, located a good cut line, and let 'er rip.

The result is great access without much penalty at all. Once the cut piece is re-mounted it will be difficult to tell it was removed.

Now, onto the valve project...

-Rick

[ndutton]

Is it just me or is there clear evidence of a serious exhaust leak on the first port?

[Mo]

Nice job Rick. You weren't kidding when you said room was limited. Wow!
Regardless, you will get it sorted out now. You will need a new exhaust manifold gasket as....

Originally Posted by ndutton

Is it just me or is there clear evidence of a serious exhaust leak on the first port?

Neil, I would say it was leaking without a doubt. However, I do believe Rick checked for exhaust leaks over 2 weeks ago in the primary troubleshooting.

That's allot of work to get at the engine but you will have decent access after your efforts.

[rpowers]

The exhaust marks are from the previous gasket, before I changed it, I'm pretty sure.

The latest actual gasket itself looked good, no leaks.

However, you will notice the 3rd (aft) manifold stud is out. It came out with the manifold and showed that my previous JB-Weld job was insufficient to hold.

Now I have a helicoil tap and helicoil part to make it all good. Will photograph tomorrow.

-Rick

[rpowers]

OK, well I have fixed the manifold stud (photo#1). Proper tapping with the right Helicoil gave it a good bite. JB-Weld should keep everything good.

Regarding the valves, with the new access cut away, I was able to reach the #3 valve from the rear and change that spring (1 hour).

The #2 valve was accessed from the front, and I used a mirror (photo#3) to get a clear view. I could stuff my head in the small space, but I had to use two pair of reading glasses (like a microscope) to see that close to my face. Using the mirror was actually easier after getting used to opposite movements. So, #2 spring was changed (1 hour).

Now, the #1 valve is going to be completely by mirror. Starting out, my Lisle spring compressor tool broke, the left tooth coming off the lifting fork.

So, I kludged it back together using the existing small fork tooth JB welded onto the larger size fork. Not quite perfect, but I have the old #1 spring out, and the new #1 spring in (photos #4 & #5)

Onwards!

-Rick

[lat 64]

I'm with Niel, those are clearly exhaust leaks and with no imprint from a gasket. Mo, shouldn't it have fresh marks from the new gasket?
This is still an area of concern (to me at least). It looks very rough. The gasket surface should be smooth and flat before it goes back together. The gasket can only do so much to conform to the surface—and not much at that.

Great photos by the way.

Russ

[rpowers]

Ok, I'll take special care this time to clean the mating surface (scrape with a razor blade?) before re-assembly.

-Rick

[sastanley]

Rick..I also like those "windshield decal scrapers" - which is essentially the same double-ended (single edge) blade you put in a utility knife, but the entire edge is exposed. You can still gouge the soft metal with the end of the blade, so be careful. There should be ZERO old gasket and noticeably brighter metal at the mating surfaces...and probably a coating of Permatex on at least one side of the gasket. With the frequency that you've been yanking your manifold & valve cover, this may help the gasket stick to one part and come off cleanly on the other for re-use. This is usually unsuccessful, so always have a spare on hand.

[Mo]

Hey Guys

Hi Russ, I think those marks indicated a new leak. That said, Rick should have seen some discoloration / even missing or damaged portion of the gasket. Rick, did you happen to pick up a new gasket kit for the pieces you removed?

When you get to the cleaning part you can use a wood chisel...we are working with cast here and it makes the job easy. It is also heavy enough to take off rust and buildup in that area with ease as you run it over the area...might save you from having to go out and buy something to clean it with.

She's on the way to recovery now anyway we look at it.

All the best.

[rpowers]

Yes, I have a whole set of gaskets (manifold, carb flange, carb half).

Just got back from another lunch-hour at the "work site".

I now have the final, #1 spring and retainer on, and need another hour or two(!) to struggle with the small keepers, lowering on the spring and retainer properly. I've gone forward to almost success, then hit failure several times already...Gonna modify my tool (spring clamp) one more time to get more clearance to raise the spring just a tad more.

Regarding the exhaust gasket seal area, I went over it with a razor blade and it is now perfectly flat and smooth.

I had asked Ken (in parts) about any gasket goop, and he said "no". Reason was that it would just burn off then leak.

If smart people here have advice on success with exhaust gasket goop, please let me know. Soon it will be time for re-assembly!

-Rick

PS- I been carefully checking tappet clearances now that I am very intimate with the valve gallery. They are all the 0.010 and 0.012 that they should be...

[Mo]

Hi Rick,

I put the new gasket on in 2007. At that time just put the plain gasket on mine without gasket maker etc after talking to Don about it. I think you will be fine for years with Ken's advice.

Took it off last Sept to do the hot section. Re-installed the manifold on the same gasket and it still works well even now.

You got it. Good luck the rest of the way in on that one.

[lat 64]

Just a further thought on the gasket surface. I 'm sure you probably have it back together now, but if don't, use the best straight edge you can get your hands on and check the flatness of both the block and the manifold. This is an area that sees big temperature changes and is prone to warping on some engine designs. Old Toyota Fj "jeeps" come to mind.
Any Chilton's or Haynes auto fix-it books will have a generic guide on checking surfaces. Worth a look.


Cheers, and happy sailing this spring,
Russ

[rpowers]

Thanks Russ,

I'm trying to do a good job with the mating surfaces. I've dry fitted a couple of times and ensured a good, straight fit surface.

Got my studs greases, threads workin', and as soon as I can get this last damn spring keeper set in place, I will be a happy man.

I broke my C-clamp lifter tool (snapped off a right tooth) again!

So, I'm struggling with a repaired tool until next Fed-ex delivery...

-Rick

[rpowers]

OK, I did it!

Using a hybrid valve compressor tool, made of the left half from one tine set and the right half of another tine set (JB-Welded together), I was able to successfully set the final #1 valve spring/keeper/retainer.

Whilst holding the kludge tool hard against it's tendency to slip off at the last moment at full compression, I gingerly reached with my other hand and picked up the pre-greased keepers and got them in place.

Then while holding my breath, I carefully lowered the spring, and it kept/held/stayed!

After 5-6 hours of struggle and various tool hybrids, I got it to work.

After all new springs were added, I checked the tappet clearances and found the source of the Mystery Noise! (see next message thread).

I also took time to dress the exhaust manifold gasket surface faces.

Carburetor minor rebuild in there too...

Another 4 hours to get it all put back together, then ready to start.

It started right up!

Photos:

1) Finished valve gallery
2) Exhaust manifold gasket area ready to go.

[lat 64]

Your job, should you decide to accept it, is to pass on all you learned here and use your super rPowers for good not evil.

This thread will self-destruct in five millenium.
Good day.
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[sastanley]

Rick, I've already commented in your other thread about the noise, but I think these before & after pictures show the attention to detail you paid to make sure the mating surfaces are good (especially in the manifold area) on the new gaskets as you re-assembled your motor. Hope all continues to run well.