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Old 11-09-2015, 08:16 AM
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Fuel, Spark, other???

I basically upgraded every component on my A4 last winter. Rebuilt Carb, elec fuel pump, indigo electronic ignition, fuel and cooling hoses, new filters, plugs, wires, ...
She ran beautifully all season, maybe 60 hours of running with not a single hiccup. Two weeks ago filled up the fuel tank. It took 17 gallons on a 20 gallon tank (I let it get a bit lower than I intended but I have no fuel gauge.)

After filling up I motored about 20 minutes back into the slip. Still no hiccups. The following day we took a brief trip and after running for about 15 minutes to get out of the slip, she just died. Hmmm, never done that before. Started right back up, got out into the harbor and I shut her down. Wind started dying so I started her back up and after about 3 minutes, she died again. It started right up again so I shut it off, sailed as close to the slip as possible and started her and she purred all the way into the slip, maybe 15 minutes of running. Whew.
I'm thinking I stirred up some krap from the bottom of the fuel tank with the fillup so I drain the Racor and replace the inline filter. Racor showed no water. Ran her in the slip for about 20 minutes with no issues.

On Saturday we're moving her to be pulled for the winter and I started her and ran it for about 10 minutes in the slip before my crew arrived. Off we go, running smoothly. 35 minutes later...she died again. Not a sputtering die, just kind of rpms go to nothing. I think I did hear the RPM's come up a little bit before it died but I can't be sure. This time it took a couple of tries to get it running again but it did restart. So we shut her down and sailed the 10 miles to the marina (in the cold rain). Coming into the cove, we started her up again and after maybe 3 minutes she died again. Unfortunately the channel to get to the marina is maybe 40 feet wide and dead into the wind. Hmmm again.
We sail as close as possible, ready the anchor and fire it up. Purrs like a kitten all the way to the travel lift, maybe 25 minutes of running.
Sorry for the long missive but now I have all winter to wonder and figure out what is going on. There is no hose bib at the yard where she now sits on the hard so I can't run her to test any theories other than one last time to winterize.
I first thought fuel but it wasn't a sputtering type of dying. Except for maybe hearing the slight rise in RPM's before dying which does sort of indicate a brief fuel starvation, I'm now thinking it may be spark related. The Indigo EI comes with this
High performance, High Reluctance Oil Filled Ignition Coil, 4.3 Ohms Resistance
1.5 Ohm, 50 Watt Ballast Resistor Kit


I'll be pulling and cleaning the carb over the winter and that may shed some light.
Any troubleshooting ideas from you guys would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to approach this logically.
Thanks for any input.

John
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:02 AM
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This is going to be an interesting investigation. This sounds like a coil problem but you have the Indigo EI with supplied resistor. Is it possible that you don't have enough resistance in front of the coil? Just one of many questions. I would start with an analysis of voltages starting at alternator output and following the circuit to coil +. Of course you cannot rule out a bad connection any where along the path. We have had several instances of faulty ignition switches. The sudden and complete nature of the shut downs does suggest electrical problem.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:21 AM
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I, too, think it's electrical. Suggest you start it up in the slip and start wiggling and tugging wires. Don't forget the ground wires.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:25 AM
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If the engine dies and will not restart, a quick shot of ether can help. If it fires right up, it had no fuel. If it still won't run, it either has no spark or it is flooded with gas or water.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
I, too, think it's electrical. Suggest you start it up in the slip and start wiggling and tugging wires. Don't forget the ground wires.
Don't forget a continuity test of the ignition switch.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:44 AM
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EWDS, puts an end to the guessing.
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:33 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Run a wire from the big battery connection on the back of the starter to coil +.*
If the shut downs go away the problem is with the boats wiring. If the shut downs don't go away the problem is with the engine's ignition system.
*Do not leave this wire connected and hot for more than a minute or two when the engine isn't running and the points\EI are closed or you will fry the coil.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:52 PM
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Thanks guys. I'll do some electrical sleuthing. I only have a short window of opportunity when winterizing as she is on the hard and I cannot get water to her. I'm probably going to have to worry about this all damn winter.
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:32 PM
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So I got to the boat this afternoon and started jiggling wires. The positive feed and the purple wire leading to the bottom of the ballast resistor (+ in) was loose enough that I could easily spin the ring connectors. I'm thinking I found the problem. Was going to fire it up to suck in some antifreeze but the hose was too short to fit in the bucket. I'll do that tomorrow evening once I get a hose extension attached.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:04 PM
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Now we're gettin' somewhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
The positive feed and the purple wire leading to the bottom of the ballast resistor (+ in) was loose enough that I could easily spin the ring connectors.
An excellent example of how each connection is a liability, a potential failure point and why we'd do ourselves a favor by minimizing the number of them in our circuit design.

You found A problem, let's hope it's THE problem.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post

You found A problem, let's hope it's THE problem.
Amen to that. Its still going to be a long damn winter wondering. When I get back to the boat and have some time I'll continue looking for any other issues.
Maybe I can talk Santa (aka The Admiral) into the EWDS.
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:12 AM
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Well, the problem persists...

Finally launched yesterday. Motor fired right up. Moved to a temp slip and left the motor running. 20 minutes later the shutdowns continued. It would restart but minutes later it would again shutdown. It was very late so no real testing last night. I'm headed to the boat now and will report any findings. It will be interesting to see how long it runs this morning. I painted the whole boat this winter and on the ride home got to thinking that maybe I forgot to take the masking tape off the fuel vent. I'm pretty sure I did but that got me to wondering if a clogged vent could cause this issue. If it runs for a while this morning, that might be an indicator. I still think it is electrical but am keeping an open mind. I added the temp and oil pressure warning system and moved the opss, oil pressure sending unit, and warning sender to a manifold on the bulkhead. Opss connections weren't as tight as the others. I'll squeeze the terminals a bit this am. (and take plenty of electrical readings at coil)
Cold rainy day here so a good day to be in the cabin.
I've got a video of the shutdowns that I'll try to post.
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:54 AM
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Shutdown video

https://youtu.be/TCuhpYCfkqQ
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:59 AM
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Don Tip

If fuel related, this is worth a read. Small air leak can do that. Happened to me last year.

http://www.moyermarine.com/shutdowns.htm
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:38 AM
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If you install a fuel pressure gauge right at the carb, fuel issue can be confirmed or eliminated.
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If you install a fuel pressure gauge right at the carb, fuel issue can be confirmed or eliminated.
What size and type and what would I be looking for?
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:59 AM
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remember the gas tank vent.....
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
What size and type and what would I be looking for?
Something in the 0-15 range. I buy the el cheapo and replace every couple of years. http://www.mcmaster.com/#atmospheric...auges/=127z779
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
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remember the gas tank vent.....
Agreed, but first the question of fuel vs spark; besides, the fuel pressure gauge is useful on a continuing basis as the quickest diagnostic tool in the box.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
remember the gas tank vent.....
Just checked that and it's clear. Thanks
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:31 AM
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Was it an artifact of the video (or maybe an artifact in my head) that the engine was "laboring" or running slower and slower just before the shut down?
It will expedite the diagnosis if you separate the engines systems from the boats systems.
Fuel: Run off an auxiliary tank straight to the fuel pump.
Ignition: See post #7.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
John
Was it an artifact of the video (or maybe an artifact in my head) that the engine was "laboring" or running slower and slower just before the shut down?
It will expedite the diagnosis if you separate the engines systems from the boats systems.
Fuel: Run off an auxiliary tank straight to the fuel pump.
Ignition: See post #7.

TRUE GRIT
I noticed that too when listening to the vid. Made me think more fuel related than originally thought.
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:51 AM
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I had an intermittent fuel pump. It drove my nuts, and I am a great troubleshooter.
intermittent probs are the worst!!
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
I had an intermittent fuel pump. It drove my nuts, and I am a great troubleshooter.
intermittent probs are the worst!!
This one is no longer intermittent. The optimistic me says that's actually a good thing...if I can figure it out.
Fuel is getting to carb. Took line off at carb and there was fuel. In fact, once I emptied the line into a cup, it slowly refilled. Hmmm.
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Old 05-01-2016, 01:02 PM
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Since you have an electric fuel pump, your symptoms sound a lot like the "stuck ball" problem I had with the Facet pump a few years ago.

The pump would move a weak stream of fuel, but the voulme wasn't enough to keep up with the engine's demands, so it would labor and stall out in a few minutes when the carbs float bowl went dry. Cranking would allow the bowl to partially refill and start the process again.

The weak stream of fuel is a big clue. You should be seeing a large voulme of fuel pumped out of the disconnected line. I've used that Facet pump as a transfer pump before.

The test, and temporary cure, is simple. Remove the bottom of the fuel pump (it's a twist-off bayonet wuth a large hex moulded in the bottom for a wrench). Then remove the mesh filter basket. The bottom of the ball that forms the check valve inside the pump will be visible. Press it with a fingertip. It should move smoothly and easily against its spring and return when released. If it doesn't move, it's stuck to its seat. Press harder and it should snap free with a "click" and then move freely. Reassemble the pump and re-test the flow. It should be much greater.

Unfortunately, in my experience, this is a temporary fix. In my case the problem returned in about a week, and the permanant fix was to replace the pump.

BTW, whereabouts in Baltimore are you? I'm just down the river, south of Key Bridge, on Rock Creek (by White Rocks).
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