Hand starting

[ndutton]

We started drifting away from coil discussion on another thread toward difficulty with hand starting so I decided to start a new thread to avoid polluting the other one further.
From RobH2:

Yes, I do have a PCV kit installed. What would plugging it do to facilitate starting?

Again, not trying to start up the PCV debate but my opinion - a minority opinion - on the PCV system is it's a managed vacuum leak and therefore has a tendency to lean the mixture, how lean is dependent on manifold vacuum and carburetor readjustment after installation. A lean mix is exactly what you don't want when starting, especially starting cold. That's why we have a choke - to richen the mixture for starting.

I don't know that the PCV system is the reason you're having difficulty hand starting but plugging it would eliminate the possibility. What the heck, it's worth a try.

[Marian Claire]

I have started my A-4 by hand. Warm engine is easy to fire, cold takes a few more tries. I do have EI and this cranking was before I installed the resistor. I doubt it will make any differance. I must note that I have very good access to the front of the engine and that helps allot.
Blasphemy alert! Could cold hand cranking be one time that "engine crack" might be usefull??
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Edit: I do not have a PCV system.

[Nahart]

Thanks for starting the new thread. I was going to do so this morning, being I was the one who opened that can of worms.

As previosly stated, I could hand crank my engine on points easily. After changing to EI, I no longer could. My next test will be to see if I am generating any spark. Maybe I'm just not cranking fast enough.

[ndutton]

Cranking speed should have nothing to do with spark production. Intake vacuum and the ability to draw a fuel/air mixture up into the combustion chamber is another matter though.

[thatch]

"Thank's for the new thread"

Marker Dave,
Changing from points to an "electronic module" ignition should have actually increased your coil's output. Is it possible that your timing is set differently now than before the change? As Neil has pointed out, it is very important that every bit of vaccum possible will be needed to hand start one of these things. This would include making sure that the choke is fully closed along with plugging the PCV valve, if so equipped. I am currently in the process of "fabricating" my own starting handle and will be doing some "worst case scenerio" starting tests in the near future. These tests will include simulating a "bad starter" or "completely dead batteries. It will be fun to see if a 9 volt transistor radio battery will provide enough juice to fire an A4.
Tom

[marthur]

Tom I am very interested in that test too! I have often wondered if D-cell batteries wired in series would do the job because I always carry them for my flashlights.

[thatch]

Mike,
I'm quite sure that 12 volts worth of "D" cels would get the job done long enough for the alternator to take over. I have seen numerous "youtube" videos demonstrating A4 hand starting, but they all used a "charged" 12 volt engine battery. The "useful trick" would be in using whatever other DC source we could find to "innitiate" the firing process.
Tom

[Nahart]

Thatch,

It's very possible I have changed the timing since I went to Electonic Ignition.
I have timing right at TDC. I will play around with it. Can't wait to hear the results of the different configurations.

Also, I may have leaky valves, I better check my compression.

[Ball Racing]

PCV lets air in just like the throttle plate does.
Once installed you richen the mixture be it idle mixture, and also if needed main jet mixture, and you should also be able to lower the idle position on the plate because of grabbing air from another source.
Once the carb is set correctly the PCV it's not really a "leak" but a different place to get air into the motor.

Some people have stated they have hand started their motors at half to full throttle then upon start, slow it back.
So that kinda throws intake vacuum, and a "leak" as a culprit of no start out the window. (to me)

[thatch]

"surprise answer"

Daniel,
Since I am currently "sequestered" about 800 miles from home (no not in jail), my tests will have to wait for a couple of weeks. These tests will be done on my "bench" A4 so I should be able to record some reasonably accurate info regarding choke and throttle position and engine timing. If it does turn out that it wants to start with the throttle slightly "cracked", like with my "boat" engine, then I will definately agree with you that a well tuned PCV engine should also start just as well as a "non pcv" engine.
Tom

[domenic]

We started drifting away from coil discussion on another thread toward difficulty with hand starting so I decided to start a new thread to avoid polluting the other one further.
From RobH2:

Again, not trying to start up the PCV debate but my opinion - a minority opinion - on the PCV system is it's a managed vacuum leak and therefore has a tendency to lean the mixture, how lean is dependent on manifold vacuum and carburetor readjustment after installation. A lean mix is exactly what you don't want when starting, especially starting cold. That's why we have a choke - to richen the mixture for starting.

I don't know that the PCV system is the reason you're having difficulty hand starting but plugging it would eliminate the possibility. What the heck, it's worth a try.

My A4 is hard start when cold. Once started, it iwll start easy? My engine has points.
Once started it will start in one easy 1/4 turn with the hand crank. I have no idea why she is hard on a cold start. At times I have to spray engine start...I don't like that because I know it's bad for the engine.

[Mo]

Domenic,
Couple of things come to mind. Considering it starts with crack then it might be a couple of issues. Obviously you have fire.
-compression check with a guage and see what you have....first.
-try turning the mixture screw in a bit (richer) and see if there is any change.
-I worked on a carb this past summer and the reason I hauled it apart was because of hard starting. Once I got at it everything was pretty good except the mixture screw was corroded and not going in....so when he, and I, though we had richened up the mixture, we had in fact done very little for our mixture. Once I got it out and cleaned up the threads on the bench brush it ran fine after.

So, I`m thinking check compression first then go for the carb.

[ndutton]

Once the carb is set correctly the PCV it's not really a "leak" but a different place to get air into the motor.

Yes, a different place that does nothing to draw fuel into the combustion chamber as it's after the carb. And the amount of air entering at that point varies.

Look, all I said was maybe give plugging the PCV a try. Where's the harm in trying?

[Ball Racing]

No harm in trying anything,

More harm in not trying things.

[thatch]

"A diversion"

Since many of our "East coast" friends are currently having to deal with the effects of "Sandy", I will offer this "hand starting" input as a diversion rather than comments on our normal "group involved fix it" commentary, so here goes.
Our A4's are very similar to the old model T and model A engines, so it stands to reason that the "hand starting" methods used on them should work on our engines as well. Starting instructions for those "early beasties" were to "place the ignition timing lever in the retard position, richen the fuel mixture and then crank the engine in a clockwise direction, (backwards from ours) with your thumb tucked under". "Once the engine is rotating on it's own, lean out the mixture and move the retard lever to its normal position". Within reasonable abilities, I will be using these instructions to create the proper way to hand start our A4's. Tests will be done in the near future.
As much as I feel a great deal of sadness for those of us like Alan, who lost his boat to this hurricane, I feel that we, collectively, should do our best to support and incourage our less fortunate friends to "rise from the ashes" and move forward.
Tom