fuel pump rebuild needed?

[ndutton]

...to drain the tank from the bottom? maybe i should drill a drain hole?

VIOLATION - - VIOLATION

The Coasties specifically forbid openings, ports or fittings on permanently installed gasoline tanks anywhere but on the top of the tank.

The Coast Guard allows threaded cleanout holes on the top of the tank. If this sounds attractive to you there are a couple of cautions to consider:

1. The tank must be fully drained of gasoline and filled with an inert material to displace all residual fumes and air (oxygen) before cutting. My opinion is this is best left to pro's. Blowing yourself to smithereens doesn't solve the tank crud problem.
2. Once cleaned and the new threaded closure plug is in place the tank must be pressure tested to 5 PSI. Permanent deformation is not cause for test failure as long as leaks don't develop.

[keithems]

looked at my tank

i think it's aluminum -- looks easy to remove if i have to

does anyone know if he pickup tube can be removed & replaced without removing the tank? as i said, i have pretty good access to it.

actually as of now, i think the fuel problem is resolved. i found i could run for increasing intervals, but then when the motor sputtered and shut down, i had to empty the fuel pump bowl and my groco water separator and then pump a quart or so of fuel thru the line just before the polishing filter [took the fuel line off the pol filter for this..]

fortunately, the water concentration has steadily declined to where it doesn't seem to be a problem for now. also, i put in 1/2 container of k-100, which claims to emulsify water. ran the motor at the dock mostly in gear for 30 minutes or so last nite with no problem.....

except.....[and there seems to always be an except... ]

i had water dripping very slowly out the manifold stud holes [will discuss further in another thread on manifold studs]

and steam in the exhaust...

i know the steam may be related to the water leaks from the manifold holes

....or is it just from the water remaining in the gas, whcih was emulified by the k-100?

will continue on the manifold stud thread...

[keithems]

unfortunately...

things are getting worse....

pumped 4 gal of cloudy fuel out today, using the lever on the fuel pump

i assume it's cloudy cuaz the k100 supposedly emulsified the water...

put in 4 gal of fresh gas....

changed water separator filter and emptied sediment bowl on fuel pump

engine ran fine...so headed out to enjoy it...

it quit about 100 ' out from the marina...thank g-d for my johnson 9.9, which brought me back

i repeated this routine 4 times this evening! each time, i could not pump fuel because the pickup tube appears to be gunked up....could not clear it by blowing into the line...had to disconnect line, connect to a hand pump, and use water or later mm oil to prime the pump and line and clear it..then reconnected, started up, went out, and the motor quit 100 yrds out..as noted...

does anyone know of any way to dissolve that gunk? what about if i fill the tank with another 15 gal of gas -- to dilute it? or is there a way to remove the pickup tube and clean it?

i think i'm at the end of the road here, and barring any good ideas from you-all, i'm gonna have to remove and clean or replace the tank...or limp along for the rest of the season with an outboard tank..

or is it possible the problem is a weak fuel pump rather than a dirty tank?

[Marian Claire]

If you have not already read this. http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=tank http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=tank
My tank had baffles in it and the only way to get rid of 35 yrs of buildup was to scrub it by hand with a Brillo pad. Be safe if you choose to cut the tank. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[keithems]

how did u get inside it to scrub it?

how do you suggest i go about emptying it before removal?

it has about 4 gal in it now...i hand pumped 4 gal out yesterday using the fuel pump lever...i do not want to continue that way...

can i crank the starter to run the pump? i'll disconnect the lead to the coil, i suppose, as well as put the fuel line to carb in a fuel container

also -- any thoughts about pumping out from the filler? or replaceing the pickup tube?

i do not anticipate cleaning it myself unless it's really easy. i'll take it somewhere or i if have to, looks like i can get a new moeller plastic tank for under $200.

luckily on my c&c 30, it looks easy to get out -- just have to snip the straps and slide her out the lazarette.

[ndutton]

Keith,
What was that feature in Reader's Digest, Points to Ponder? Here are a few:

1. If you're thinking of cutting open the tank to clean it thoroughly, why not just replace it instead? You'll end up with a perfectly clean tank without a patched hole.
2. If you're removing the tank from the boat, why not replace it? It's the same work without the cleaning, therefore actually less work.
3. Whether you replace the tank or not, where did the crud come from in the first place? Once cleaned or replaced, you don't want crud to re-enter the tank. Possible sources are the O-ring on the fuel fill deck fitting and your fuel supplier. I don't use the local fuel dock preferring to schlep my fuel to the boat in 5 gallon jugs filled at the local high volume gas station. That way I'm not inheriting whatever nastiness might be in the marina's underground low turnover tank.

The Moeller poly tanks have a good reputation on this forum and seem to be reasonably priced.

[keithems]

yes

u must have posted before i did my last -- pls read above

actually, i'm wondering the opposite...i've been bringing in auto fuel in small amts from the nearest gas station...maybe the formulation is more prone to separation / water accum, etc.?

do u think i should try filling the tank with marine gas [ours here is pretty good], hoping it dilutes the crud.

the problem now is not crud getting to the motor -- it just that something is continually plugging the dip tube or outlet....

nice guy at nearby slip last nite gave me "e-z zorb" he swears by it. it was after i added it that the plugging began...i wonder if it gummed things up and if i can dilute the gum with more fuel.

as far as the cause of the crud -- it appears to be an aluminium tank 20-30 yrs old...so who knows? it may just be time for a new plastic one.

[ndutton]

Yeah, you and I were typing at the same time. Call me Slowhand.

Ask my opinion on what should be done and you'll get an extreme response every time, I admit it. If I can't afford a new boat then I'll be satisfied with an old boat with all new stuff, not much difference in reliability.

Except for the A-4 of course. She's my girl . . . .

As for new stuff, here are some examples:

• Even with a smooth running engine I replaced the wiring, control panel, fuel system (everything except the tank) and exhaust up to and including the waterlift. My key switch is a regularly replaced item, every 2 - 3 years.
• My mast lighting didn't work. My solution was to remove the mast for 3 months and refurb. The only thing original is the extrusion itself. New wiring, fittings, paint, standing and running rigging, spreaders, antennae, lighting and added radar at the same time.
• Same with plumbing, electrical, cushions, windows, interior finishes, exterior finishes, you name it.

And so on. Everything is less than 5 years old and functions like a boat less than 5 years old. It works for me.

[Marian Claire]

how did u get inside it to scrub it?

how do you suggest i go about emptying it before removal?

My situation was unusual. A custom SS tank shaped to fit in a homemade boat. Re-fabricating would have been mega $$$. Details in the treads I referenced in post 19. As suggested if you have a standard tank, replacing may be the best way to go.
I used a hand pump thru the fill tube.
Dan S/V Marian Claire

[keithems]

i get it

pretty much the same, esp. re. the a4:

since i got it in 2008....i don't even want to get started....

not to mention all the upgrades from mmi

just this year....

a4 was r, r, and r'ed -- cam was broken, valves were renewed, new rod bearings and rings, oil screen, head redone, oil adjuster, rear seal...

since it was out.....new cutlass, stuffing box, shaft hose.....shaft rehabbed....

new muffler last yr

many carb rebuilds and adj. needle valve kits, indigo pcv valve kit

just did new studs for the manifold

and now it looks like a new fuel tank is in my future...

so, neil....should i fill this one first and see if that dilutes the crud? course if i do and it does not, i have 15 gal or so to get out...

and how do you recommend i get the fuel out of there, even if it's only the 4 gal in there now?...my marina neighbors are growing impatient with me anyways....said i need to pay a mechanic to get the motor going....i told them i am the &*(^&%&( mechanic...

k

[ndutton]

In order of importance:

1. Depending on their tone, tell the neighbors thanks but no thanks (really toned down from what I first typed). Besides, if their boats are diesels, they stink. Don't they have bilges to clean in consideration of their neighbors within smelling distance?
2. The only way to really know if the crud is resolved is to remove the tank, cut it open and get right down in there. Anything less is blind faith.
3. Emptying the tank: here is where an electric fuel pump pays dividends. Your situation is complicated by a clogged pickup. With 4 gallons present you're looking at an additional 30 lbs., not an unmanageable weight during tank removal in my estimation. Adding fuel in a soak attempt risks more weight during removal if the soak is unsuccessful and the pickup remains clogged.

You're going through the most difficult part right now, the decision making. Once decided you can get into the logistics of making it happen.

Here's the trade-off:
Removing the tank and cutting it open or replacing it is a lot of work but gives you a complete, pristine repair. Leaving the tank in place and soaking is less work and might do the trick but the uncertainty lingers. It's your choice, not mine and not those nosy neighbors'.

P.S.
Given this and my previous post in this thread, can you tell who I'm listening to in my headset??

[keithems]

car talk?

the woman who bought you lunch?

[ndutton]

Slowhand, Blind Faith . . .

I'm in a Clapton mood this morning. He's had many styles over a 45+ year career but the apex for me was in Hartford Connecticut in 1985. That was the last engagement before retiring his legendary Fender Stratocaster "Blackie" due to neck issues. It was later bought by Hard Rock Cafe' for nearly a half million dollars. Also playing in that engagement was bassist Don "Duck" Dunn, recently deceased and guitarist Tim Renwick who plays for Pink Floyd, has for decades.

Judging by his appearance in this video it's pretty recent and has the style of Clapton I really liked.

edit:
Same keyboard player in the recent video as the 1985 tour too, Chris Stainton

Not intended as a hijack Keith, I thought I'd provide a musical interlude while you decide

[roadnsky]

car talk?

the woman who bought you lunch?

Easy boy... easy

[keithems]

a good day!

i'n so totally tired of playing mechanic on da boat on a nice warm day -- i want to sail!!!

probably mentioned that last nite i went out 5-6 times with the a-4 running well and returned with my johnson 9.9 cuz the a-4 had quit.

so today...having thought it over...i went to west marine and bought their 3 gal outboard tank for $65.

let me tell you -- the best $ i ever spent! first, jeff. the engine guru there...was very helpful -- he told me that my tank, being aluminum, is likely just dirty, not rotted. and he told me that i can open the port where the fuel quantity sender is located, and pump out the gunk. and likely i'll get most out, since i can pump to the bottom, whereas the pick up tube only goes within an inch or so of the bottom.

and yes -- i know for sure it is a tank / contamination problem. i hooked up the outboard tank [with fresh fuel] to my a4, and she purred like a kitten. my first "normal" sail in a year! [meaning start a4, leave dock, raise sails, stop a4, enjoy the silence, sail, then bring in headsail, start a4, lower and secure main, return to dock, stop a4, thank g-d. ]

so yes, she runs just fine with the new fuel in the new outboard tank..

i just wanted a normal sail. me so happy!

next week i'll try to pump out the main tank and see if that helps; if not, i'll replace it.

and yes there are other details, which i'll discuss in future posts -- it's always something -- but for now...so glad and thankful!