Engine won't start and I'm at my wits-end

[ChicagoNewport27]

So, I've been futzing about with this engine since I put the boat in the water this spring, and it just will not start. (In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have put the boat in the water until the engine was running, but I was confident that I could get her running in no time.) Anyway, the engine cranks but will not start.

After launch, I tried to start her up to get her over to her mooring. No luck, had to get towed.

When I got out to the mooring, I started running through Don Moyer's troubleshooting guides (the pdf and the printed A4 maintenance manual), as follows. Please double-check my logic and troubleshooting, and offer suggestions on what I should try next:

My first thoughts were bad/old/stale/waterlogged gas. So, I pumped all the old gas from my tank and refilled with 5 gals of fresh.

Tried to start, no dice.

I pulled the No. 1 spark plug, and, while a teeny bit fouled-looking, it jumped out at me that it wasn't even a tiny bit moist. Bone dry. Hmmm. Fuel isn't getting into the engine?

I took the supply hose off the [electric] fuel pump, to check for good supply there. I had cranked the engine several times at this point, so I expected a steady drip at the very least out of the supply hose. Oddly enough, fuel was not coming out of the supply line. That supply line came from the fuel filter, meaning that fuel was not getting from the filter to the engine. Okay, easy enough, I think to myself. Just replace the filter.

So, I replace the filter, thinking it was clogged. Still, no fuel from the fuel filter. Hmmm, I thought, since I now know the filter is perfect, the problem must be upstream of the fuel filter.

I took the hose off the supply (tank) side of the filter, and saw no fuel coming from there, either. The supply line wasn't even moist with fuel, and it didn't even smell like gas. I started checking the hose for leaks along its entire length (found none), and noticed that the fuel tank shutoff valve was still closed! I slapped my forehead, cursed a few times, and opened the cutoff. Still, no fuel came out of the hose, even though the valve was supposedly now in the open position. I attached a primer bulb in the supply side of the hose, and started trying to pump the fuel into the hose. No dice. No matter how long I pumped the primer bulb, nothing came out of the hose. Arggh!

Next, it occurred to me that maybe the fuel tank wasn't venting properly. So, I replaced the fuel vent hose, and, just to be sure, blew through the vent end of the hose and heard a gurgling noise in the tank. Well, the fuel vent certainly isn't clogged anymore, if it even was before. After doing this, I used the primer bulb again, trying to pump fuel into the hose. No luck again. To me, this indicates some problem with the fuel pickup in the tank. Maybe sludge or something. Well, this is an enclosed SS tank, full of fresh gasoline with no sort of inspection hatch/port, so this is as far as I could take this line of questioning.

Reasoning there was some sort of poltergeist in my fuel tank preventing fuel from being pulled from it, I bought an outboard fuel tank. My reasoning at this point is that I just need to get fuel to the engine, and if it worked I could sail all season this year using the aftermarket tank, and then pull the old tank in the offseason and either fix it or replace it with a new inboard tank.

So, I buy a 12-gallon tank and get the fuel line hooked up. One squeeze on the primer bulb and fuel spurted out as expected. Yay! I hooked this up to my fuel filter, squeezed the primer bulb a couple more times, and fuel squirted
out of the filter. Yay! I attached the hose from the fuel filter to the pump, primed it twice more, and, after running the blower a bit, tried to start the engine again.

Still cranks, but wont start. GRRR.

I pull the plugs again, and the plugs are all STILL bone dry.

At this point, I get curious and decide to pull out the center connection from the coil and try to make an arc while cranking the engine. No spark, no arc, no nothing. Great, I have no spark AND no fuel. Since I have the plugs out at this point tinkering with trying to see a spark out of something ANYTHING, I remember that I've gotten replacement plugs in the mail from moyer, so I gap and install them, and try to turn the engine over again.

No start. Still gives a healthy crank, but never turns over.

I'm at my wits-end. At this point, I've spent every weekend of a great sailing season pottering about in my engine compartment, and, since the boat is bobbing about at her mooring, I've made myself seasick a few times in the process. Sure, I could probably get out of the harbor under sail alone and go for a nice day-sail, but I surely wouldn't feel comfortable in case a storm came up, or when I needed to get the boat back into harbor, through a crowded mooring field, and back tied up to my mooring ball, under sail alone.

So, I raise the white flag, admit I'm at the limits of my expertise, and make a call up to Larsen Marine, up at Waukegan (my marina has no mechanic, and Larsen is the closest). Mark, the guy I speak to there, is very helpful, assuring me that its probably nothing more then points. He tells me how to clean them, and even how to change them if need be, over the phone. They were very helpful! He assured me that I could definitely do this myself without his help.

So, buoyed with newfound confidence in my tinkering skills, I order the complete tuneup kit next-day shipped from Moyer, and the following weekend I set about the task.

I had to do this one-handed, while I held a little shaving mirror with my other hand, because on my boat, there is no access aft of the third spark plug. And let me tell you how quickly you can get seasick trying to change the points on your distributor, backwards, using a shaving mirror and only one hand. There's barely enough room to change the last two plugs, and there certainly is no direct access to the distributor, water pump, dipstick or coil without cutting an access port in the floor of the cockpit.

So, it took me an entire day just to install the points using my shaving mirror, and even though I lost three set screws and a two screwdrivers into the bilge, I managed to get her done! All told, I replaced the plugs, plug wires, points, condenser, and rotor, retimed the engine so No 1 cylinder was at TDC, and tried again.

Didnt even crank. The battery was dead! ARRRGGGH! Another weekend wasted. I took the batteries home for some quality time with the charger.

This past weekend, with charged batteries and a heart full of hope, I journeyed back to my boat. I installed the batteries, primed the fuel system, and turned the key...

AND IT STILL DIDNT F*@&ing START. It cranks, but wont turn over. The plugs are still dry, and I still cant get an arc out of the coil wire when I hold it to the head.

Dear lord, talk about frustrated. I can't even express how saddened I was to miss another weekend of gorgeous sailing weather.

So please, someone, ANYONE give me some advice on where I should turn next.

Thanks in advance.

[bayareadave]

multiple points of failure

Your troubleshooting seems logical to me. It sounds like you just have a boat that has been neglected, and you are probably dealing with multiple points of failure. It seems you are assuming that if you fix one problem, the engine will start. You may have to look at the carbauretor (i cant spell it, so I sure can't tell you how it works). Perhaps it is good that you are moving through the systems and taking care of problems that would cost you down the road (at an inopportune time no doubt!).

After spending three days inside the engine compartment of my Catalina 27, I can say, do what you can to get comfortable. Accept that a boat owner has to spend time doing maintenance (unless you can write a check instead of picking up a wrench). Question: is the mooring working for you? Can you move the boat to a marina? This won't be the last time you spend many hours below.

[ChicagoNewport27]

I guess what I'm after here is just a sense for what stones are left unturned. After replacing all the stuff I've replaced to this point, I'm at a loss for what I should be looking at next.

I know the A4 is a really simple engine. Fuel, plus spark, should equal an engine startup. Even if that startup is the most rough, coughing and sputtering start on only two cylinders with odd-colored smoke coming out of the exhaust, the engine should at least turn over, right? And, if it doesn't start, from everything I know about engines, and everything I've read about the A4, it's either fuel or spark to blame, right?

Well, let me just think aloud here:

I've changed everything in the ignition system except for the coil and the wiring.

The starter is trying to turn the engine over, so the wiring from the battery, through the ignition switch, to the starter solenoid would seem to be free from blame, right?

The wiring from the starter to the coil might be suspect, although I checked and the wires appeared to be in good condition with no obvious abrasions and securely attached to the starter and the coil. There could be some unseen problem with this wire, I'll grant.

The wiring from the coil negative lead to the ground on the front of the crankcase is a little worn-looking, but the connections are secure. There could be some unseen problem with this wire, too, I guess.

The main lead from the center of the coil to the center of the distributor is new-ish, with no corrosion and it snaps into place on both ends securely. The other distributor wires are in good shape. However, it concerns me that I cant pull off the lead and get a good arc. Thats a test common to all the repair manuals, yet I cant get it to work here.

On the fuel side: I've not tinkered with the carb at all, nor have I removed the flame arrestor to check for pooled fuel. I've only tinkered with things up to the fuel pump. Speaking of which, I only am guessing the fuel pump is working, but I dont know of a way of knowing for sure.

What am I forgetting?

Help?!

[tenders]

Wow, do I ever feel for you. I think you're close to a running engine. I am guessing there is something very simple that just isn't right but, I'm not sure your troubleshooting has been ruthlessly logical. When you were figuring out the fuel supply you needed to look down every single inch of the fuel line and you missed a closed valve. I'm not saying the process you followed was dumb...my engine shut down in a stiff breeze halfway out to my mooring right after I launched this year for the same reason...but it wasn't logical. You have to be uncompromisingly anal retentive about this and you will be rewarded. (I suggest placing a piece of tape over the teeth of your ignition key listing what you've done whenever you modify something that prevents the engine from starting or running safely--like closing a fuel valve, stuffing a rag into the exhaust, removing a water pump, etc.)

So:
(1) are you sure you're getting fuel out of the pump? Obviously this has to happen and it doesn't sound as though you're sure it is. Fuel is getting TO the pump but perhaps not THROUGH it. Airlock? You need to disconnect the line at the carb and see if you can get fuel to come out of the pump side. If it flows, is there any reason to think there might be severe sludge in the carb preventing it from getting to the engine? If there's no reason to suspect a wad of sludge, I wouldn't take the carb off until you figure out...

(2) why you aren't getting spark. There is no substitute for a $15 multimeter on a boat. There are just a few wires to test for voltage and continuity, then you have to assume failed components. You have voltage to the coil? Is the coil old? I'd replace it if you don't know, it seems highly suspect. The only other thing I can think of is that one of the wires to the ignition system looks OK but is broken inside the insulation or not making contact at a connection--perhaps it's crimped incorrectly or pulled partway out. But the multimeter will help you find that. To me the problems you're describing sound electrical in nature, and by the way, with such difficult access to the points and condenser, a $100 investment in electronic ignition would not be a bad idea in my opinion--even though you just replaced the analog stuff.

(3) did you close the raw water intake before you did all this fruitless cranking? you should check to make sure you still have good compression. It is quite possible to inadvertently suck water into the engine and blow the head gasket. Stuck valves are also a possible reason for not running but even if they're stuck you still need (1) and (2) first.

Only once you have these three things working beyond a doubt would I look for more complex stuff and remove the carb or look for extreme exhaust blockages or bizarre timing issues (see below).

Were you the owner of the boat the last time the engine ran? When was that?

I suspect once you get these things resolved the engine will roar to life, and you will feel a rush which is even better than a lot of things that are supposed to have no equal. My sympathies on the seasickness--I have that unfortunate tendency too. Through (for once) no doing of my own, my engine's distributor was at some point in the engine's history installed 180 degrees out of sync with "normal" and I spent days and days in the boat and several times getting sick over the side assembling the ignition "by the book" and trying to figure out why it kept backfiring and wouldn't start. This situation was identified by a last-ditch random frustrated effort of rotating the wires around the cap. Dumb and illogical...but all the logical had been followed, leaving only the illogical...and VA-VOOM! (I also set the boat on fire with ether but that's another story altogether. See, things could be worse!)

PS, I ran the batteries dead while doing this too and ended up buying a 2-cycle AC/DC generator to allow me to continue troubleshooting at the mooring the next time this happens. The generator puts out quite a lot of DC current, although not enough to immediately start an engine from a totally dead battery. This is easier, but not cheaper, than removing the batteries for charging. And it is cheaper, though not easier, than hauling out. Anybody with the same problem in the greater New York area is welcome to borrow the generator.

[ChicagoNewport27]

Thanks for the great advice tenders! I'll report back here when I've done more testing along the lines you suggested.

[bayareadave]

using a "jumper" to test the coil

This post talks about using a "jumper" to test the coil. The boat does not have points, but it is some good information on testing the coil:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/printthread.php?t=856

[Harold]

Engine won't work

I suspect that the plugs are dry because the carb is blocked and fuel is not getting into the carb, through it and to the plugs.

If you take the carb off there are four screws. Open them. You will see a float, take it off by removing he pin. Under that is a needle in seat, that controls the gas coming into the carb. I bet that it is blocked. I would clean out the carb. You need some compressed air to do that. The sprays do not work. Compressed air does. Make sure that every little tub is completely clean.

If your fuel system does not have two filters I would put an other one on it should be 2 micron and the first one should be 10 micron. Racor has one the number is 110 a you can buy a 2 micron filter to fit that model. But is a bit hard to find. But Racor makes it and you can get it.

That will help to make sure that the fuel in to the carb is clean which will go along way to making sure the carb stays clean and your plugs get gas.

On the rest of your problem, I would only be guessing.

[bayway27]

I would suggest taking a can of starting fluid aboard and spraying a squirt down the carb throat. If the engine roars to life however briefly you know your problem is fuel not spark. I believe if it is fuel it is likely the float valve as was previously suggested. I also have a Newport 27 and the spark is difficult to see since the sun is in your eyes when your facing cyclinders 1 & 2. I had a similar problem this year and removed the carb and used carb cleaner to remove the junk buildup but was unable to remove the float pin. After my third removal of the carb, gets easier each time, I finally noticed and removed the allen screw in the aft end of the carb at the float area. This area was loaded with junk and again using carb cleaner flushed the offending material out, replaced carb and engine started immediate after initial prime. Don't be fooled into believing the float is free by just turning the carb over a few times and seeing it move, I was and wasted time until I actually cleaned it properly.

[RDSURATT]

rdsuratt

Sounds like you are having a summer like mine!!!
I am assuming the engine is actually turning over but is not firing(??)
From what I have read...seems you know what the problems are...just need to fix them.
Everyone has given good advice. "Tenders" reply is VERY logical as what to do. Fix the "no spark" problem and Fix the "no gas" to the carb problem or the engine will not run. Slow methodical troubleshooting, fix one problem at a time. Also per Tenders, I also suggest a multimeter on board (I have two). For your "spark" problem you need the ability to measure voltage and continuity. (IF no spark from coil, either no juice to coil or a bad coil (wires?? connections??)) No gas in carb (plugged line?? stuck needle valve??? Float??Fuel pump working???)
My wife and I live on our Tartan 34 on a mooring in Newport RI. Tenders suggestion for a small generator is invaluable for battery charging etc.
Also I have had two sailboats with A4s and I converted both to electronic ignition (in my opinion this is the best single change to the A4 you can make as far as performance and ease of "Tune-up"). (especially if access is a problem)
If you want to know my summer read (under cooling) "Late model FW cooled overheating". I feel for you, I'm at wits-end also. At least you are getting responses, I have had none.

[baileyem]

starting problems

Hey Chicago,
Is your A4 a new model or an old model? The old model has a Prestolite distributor that relies on a very thin piece of insulation to separate current-carrying parts from the distributor case which is grounded. That piece of insulation becomes very fragile with age and tends to break up and fall apart with the slightest encouragement. Without it, or if it is installed incorrectly, you have a dead short inside your distributor: your points will not show any spark; your coil will not produce any spark; you will scratch your head and think a lot of bad thoughts about your A4.

If you have the Prestolite distributor, Don sells the insulating kit for it.

If you don't have the Prestolite, well, good luck solving your problems.

Mike

[ghaegele]

Chicago, one thing in your post jumped out at me. You say you changed the element in your filter then couldn't get a draw in your fuel line. Was it blocked or just sucking air? I recently had a shut-down due to a clogged Racor filter. I couldn't get the base off the filter to replace the element so I went down to West Marine and bought a new filter with the base. I installed it and the engine started for 5 minutes then shut down. I saw that the filter had not filled with fuel and I couldn't get a draw on the fuel line at the fuel pump--not by sucking or 10 minutes of the primer ball. After checking the line back to the tank I returned to the filter. The gasket looked fine but didn't fit in the grove at the top of the filter perfectly. I grabbed the old filter and low-and-behold, the gasket was different. It must have been a gasket for a different element, but it fit almost perfectly into the inside groove of the element. The proper gasket should have gone in the outside groove! I had bought the right element, but the bag it came in wasn't sealed and somebody must have put the wrong gasket on it.

Engine runs fine now. Electrically, you need to go over everything you did and double/triple check your wiring. Make absolutely sure the right wires are going to the proper terminals. Get the wiring diagram out. Good luck.

[Rich Chandonnait]

wont start

first I'm a maintenance man for a living, it seems to me 1st that you have a fuse blown , because I can bet that your electric fuel pump is not working,2nd I would look at( I mean check with a volt/ohms meter) you key switch to make sure that you are getting some juice to the coil because you need fuel and spark to fire any engine up that's the nature of the beast

[msauntry]

Get Better Access.

You're close...Keep going till you get it. Get the carb off and clean it.
That should fix the fuel problem. Can't get the carb off? Remove whatever obstacles are in your way.

Spark- 3-4 ohms across the terminals of the coil is what you should see there. Make sure you see 12v at the coil positive wire.

Can you do anything to improve your access? Seriously consider cutting some access panels around your engine to get to stuff.

You can bet that if access is difficult, this engine never saw proper maintenance. They can take a lot of abuse, but if you want it running right, get some access. This pays dividens not just for this project, but for every future one as well.

Round plastic "Inspection ports" are cheap and easy to install. Get a Dremmel tool and start cutting.

[tenders]

Note that ChicagoNewport27's postings are from last year and he hasn't posted since mid-July 2007.

[henri]

i did not read it all my English is not good enough
if i read this your choke is not closing
so it cannot get enough gas
i had that problem
greetings henri