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  #26   IP: 172.56.23.108
Old 05-01-2016, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Since you have an electric fuel pump, your symptoms sound a lot like the "stuck ball" problem I had with the Facet pump a few years ago.

The pump would move a weak stream of fuel, but the voulme wasn't enough to keep up with the engine's demands, so it would labor and stall out in a few minutes when the carbs float bowl went dry. Cranking would allow the bowl to partially refill and start the process again.

The weak stream of fuel is a big clue. You should be seeing a large voulme of fuel pumped out of the disconnected line. I've used that Facet pump as a transfer pump before.

The test, and temporary cure, is simple. Remove the bottom of the fuel pump (it's a twist-off bayonet wuth a large hex moulded in the bottom for a wrench). Then remove the mesh filter basket. The bottom of the ball that forms the check valve inside the pump will be visible. Press it with a fingertip. It should move smoothly and easily against its spring and return when released. If it doesn't move, it's stuck to its seat. Press harder and it should snap free with a "click" and then move freely. Reassemble the pump and re-test the flow. It should be much greater.

Unfortunately, in my experience, this is a temporary fix. In my case the problem returned in about a week, and the permanant fix was to replace the pump.

BTW, whereabouts in Baltimore are you? I'm just down the river, south of Key Bridge, on Rock Creek (by White Rocks).
Thanks Ed. Will do. I'm currently at Old Bay Marina. Just launched yesterday evening and too crappy weather to go to the Anchorage which is home. Actually it's a good thing because I'd have been getting a tow.
When wrote weak stream, that was with everything off. Just the hose disconnected from carb. I didn't test the pump with power yet.
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  #27   IP: 73.255.216.151
Old 05-01-2016, 01:35 PM
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Ed, sounds like that pump had prostate problems.
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
I noticed that too when listening to the vid. Made me think more fuel related than originally thought.
Right after a shutdown put a finger on the packing nut and see how hot it is. Let's be sure the packing is not screwed up. Easy to do.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
Thanks Ed. Will do. I'm currently at Old Bay Marina. Just launched yesterday evening and too crappy weather to go to the Anchorage which is home. Actually it's a good thing because I'd have been getting a tow.
When wrote weak stream, that was with everything off. Just the hose disconnected from carb. I didn't test the pump with power yet.
Most Atomic 4s will run at idle or for short runs without a fuel pump if the tank is even slightly above the carb. Your pump may not be working at all but the fuel is just falling thru it according to the head your set up allows.
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Old 05-01-2016, 06:50 PM
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So I bypassed the OPSS and the Facet fuel pump worked fine. Gas looked good too. Even tried to start with the OPSS bypassed. No joy. Back to electrical. BTW, it started this morning but cut out within about 30 seconds. It will not start now. New coil on order. I'll recap all my steps tomorrow on the computer. I'm not like my kids, takes me forever to type on the iPhone
Thanks for all the help.


John
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  #31   IP: 71.179.226.138
Old 05-02-2016, 11:35 AM
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Recap

Here goes.
Having changed nothing, at the end of last season I had a few shutdowns.
I had just filled tank so I thought maybe krap stirred up in fuel. Changed racor and final filter. No change, still shutting down.
Found loose connection at ballast resistor in and tightened.
Waited all winter to restart.
Over the winter I installed a Moyer oil change kit and Temp and Oil pressure warning system. When installing the temp and pressure kit I moved the OPSS, Oil Pressure sender and warning kit to a bulkhead mounted manifold. (it is grounded to the buss bar.)
I cleaned the flame arrestor.
I also moved blower, running, steam and deck light toggle switches to the cockpit control panel from the main fuse panel. Wiring behind cockpit panel looked clean but it was moved around jockeying to get the new switches installed.
Finally launched late Saturday.
Started fine, motored 50 ft to slip, tied it up and left it running.
Ran for about 45 minutes and it shut down.
Restarted and it ran for about 30 minutes and it shut down.
Restarted and it ran for about 3 minutes and shut down.
Restarted (took video) and it ran for about 1.5 minutes and it shut down.
Went home.
Back the next morning, restarted and it ran for about 30 seconds and shut down.
Checked fuel tank vent hose...clear
Checked fuel to the carb. Fuel pump (electric) was working with OPSS bypassed. It was getting fuel and fuel looked clean.
Started checking all wiring connections. Cleaned ground lugs.
Now it won't start at all.
Suspect coil/EI (Indigo)
I was by myself so testing spark was very difficult. (remote starter was at home...duh!)
Checked and Indigo is closed for two weeks...just my luck.
Am going to pick up an Ichlin coil and resistor from Napa after work and see if that is the issue. If I'm not getting spark I'd have to figure problems with the EI module. If no spark with the new coil, I'll also take the cockpit switch panel off and check all wiring there. (I hate that job...)

Tuesday after work, my friend and I will do more sleuthing.
If necessary we'll put the points and condenser back in. (I have to move the boat from the marina where it was launched)

In the mean time, I'm going to order a carb rebuild kit for the spare carb I acquired over the winter.

So, if any of this triggers any more thoughts on what is causing my issue I welcome all suggestions.
Thanks
John
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Last edited by Oldlaxer1; 05-02-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:43 AM
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Thumbs up Steady as you go

I like your plan.
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  #33   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 05-02-2016, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
Here goes.
Suspect coil/EI (Indigo)
I was by myself so testing spark was very difficult. (remote starter was at home...duh!)
Thanks
John
You don't need a remote starter to check the coil. Disconnect the wire from coil - inside the distributor and turn the key on. Hold the big wire from the coil near ground and with the other hand briefly touch the wire from coil - to ground. A half inch blue white arc is good. This tests only the coil.Once you get a good arc from the coil then reconnect the lead from coil - to the EI and see if if you can get the same arc out of the coil when you turn the engine with the starter. If the good arc disappears the EI is suspect.
You can heat stress the coil by leaving the wire from coil - grounded for a period of time like 45-60 seconds then seeing if you can throw a decent arc.


TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 05-03-2016 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:26 PM
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when troubleshooting gets bad I bypass as much as I can.

Hook a wire direct from the battery to the coil.

Fill a jug with gas and make a siphon feed direct to the carb. No filter, even they can be intermittent. (I have a story about that)

You can keep the pump pumping and see if it keeps pumping.

Use ether for diagnosing, or use an oil can with gas, and a little MMO.

throw wrenches!!

if you have a car or engine that uses a coil like this one, hook up this coil and see if it will run it.
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  #35   IP: 108.31.90.116
Old 05-02-2016, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
... I'm currently at Old Bay Marina. ...
That's just across river from me. I have two good friends who keep their boats there. Where do you plan to anchor?
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:28 PM
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It was an electrical fuel problem

So I straightened out my EI problem. Totally my fault when switching coils and getting two wires switched. I got back to my office and reviewed the installation instructions and realized my error. Went to the boat mid-day to test my theory and I was right. started right up. Ran for 1 minute and 30 seconds and died. I waited a bit and restarted. About 1 min 30 seconds and died again. I bypassed the Oil Pressure safety switch to the fuel pump and it started again and after about a minute and 30 seconds….it died again.
When I had the fuel line off the carb, the tank pressure was enough to force gas thru the two filters (racor and polishing) and fill the hose. I’m beginning to wonder if all I’m getting for running time is the fuel in the carb bowl, then it runs out and stops. Weeps into the bowl to refill and dies when it runs out. My friend and I went back after work to test the theory. We bypassed the Opss and got some fuel flow. We then connected the Facet pump directly to the battery and got a real fuel flow. Someone earlier joked about a fuel pump having a prostate problem. Mine did. We reconnected the fuel hose to the carb, kept the power to the pump directly from the battery and started the motor. Ran for 20 minutes or so until we shut it down. So the pump works but there must be an electrical limitation. We track down the problem connection, fixed it, started the motor and it just kept on running! By the way, my fuel pressure gauge should be arriving tomorrow...that would have helped identify the problem I was just too cheap to pay expedited delivery. Adding an EWDS would have also identified the problem but the old budget was too tight. Later this year when boat bucks are somewhat replenished I'll be adding that to my system.
It wasn't a spark issue but an electrical fuel issue.
I'll be moving the boat this weekend and will post any updates.
Edward, my home marina is the Anchorage Marina in the inner harbor. Look me up if you venture west on the Patapsco!
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:41 PM
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Clearly you had a resistance problem in the fuel pump circuit so the pump was not delivering it's potential. Add ohm meter to your on board tool kit.
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Old 05-03-2016, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
...my home marina is the Anchorage Marina in the inner harbor. Look me up if you venture west on the Patapsco!
I get up there occasionally. I know it because a good friend of mine keeps his boat there (32' Aiiled Seawind "Voyager").
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Old 05-04-2016, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Add ohm meter to your on board tool kit.
That's how we found the problem connection. I actually upgraded from a cheapo Harbor freight one to a good digital meter during this exercise.
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Old 05-04-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
Totally my fault when switching coils and getting two wires switched. I got back to my office and reviewed the installation instructions and realized my error. Went to the boat mid-day to test my theory and I was right. started right up.
Been there. Done that.
Now when I get a new coil, before I take it to the boat, I paint the - side around the terminal with white paint. When I install the coil I make sure the wire to the distributor is connected to the terminal marked with the white paint.

TRUE GRIT

Glad you got the engine running.
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  #41   IP: 69.243.42.205
Old 05-07-2016, 07:21 PM
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Sigh of relief

Easy motor/sail of about 10 miles with no hiccups. Motor was back to her old self, running with no problems . Thanks to everyone for the help.
Ironically, the boat that is occupying my old slip has an A4 which is shutting down after a short period of running time. I told the young guys who own it, I'd come by tomorrow to help them trouble shoot. Mechanical fuel pump so it sounds to me like my first check will be the fuel tank vent. Then I'll give them one of my spare filters and go from there.
Cheers!
John
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If you install a fuel pressure gauge right at the carb, fuel issue can be confirmed or eliminated.
Can you show fuel pressure but the needle valve be stuck thus not allowing the fuel into the carb
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:26 PM
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Can you show fuel pressure but the needle valve be stuck thus not allowing the fuel into the carb
Yes, and how neatly that implicates the needle and seat!
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