Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Fuel System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 12.149.140.242
Old 07-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Richie740's Avatar
Richie740 Richie740 is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A4 Fuel Leak

Hello all, this is the first new thread on the forum but I've already seen great feedback from all you members so I'm hoping I can get some great advice here too

I started having what I believe are fuel issues a couple weeks ago on my '77 C&C 29. There was old fuel from the previous owner and then I placed some new fuel in the tank but let her sit for about 6 months on 1/8 tank so I thought of condensation. I've bled the fuel line via the Main Passage Plug and changed out the fuel/water separator filter. In doing so I've got the engine running better but in my troubleshooting I created a fuel leak (I also think that this leak helped removed some of the water in the fuel which dumped into my bilge )

I originally thought that the fuel leak was coming from the main passage plug because that gasket was shot but after thoroughly checking that out I have determined that the likely culprit is a copper pipe running from the bottom of the carb to the up to the engine block above the carb via copper elbows. Someone in the marina has mentioned to me that I should remove this part altogether and plug the 2 holes with special plugs that can be installed. He mentioned that this was a bad design and actually causes vacuum issues. Can anyone confirm this for me because I don't want to just start removing parts off the engine that were designed to be on it?
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 07-16-2013, 03:12 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Thumbs down Leaks

First welcome to the Afourian Forum. Second ignore that guy!!!

Do not remove the "scavenge tube, it is a safety devise and very important!!!

What you probably have is a leaking needle&seat. This allows fuel to over-run the bowl and fill the carb throat. The scavenge tube removes this fuel (hopefully while running very rich) from the throat via manifold vacuum. When the engine is not running the fuel can leak out of loose fittings or the front of the carb until empty.

Get a shut off valve for safety installed inline too.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 07-16-2013, 04:28 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
You can check the level of the fuel in the carb without removing it.

You need to find a way to hook up a clear tube to the bowl. You can use either the drain of the main jet plug. You remove the plug, and find a fitting of anything, that will let you hook up a clear tube in its place.

Then you route the tube up. It need only be a few inches long, and open at the end. You run the engine, or just have it so the bowl will fill. Then the tube will fill to the same height as the gas in the bowl. This way you can see if it is filling to high. It should fill to a height less then the carb joint.

I have not done it on the Atomic Four, but many other carbs.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 07-16-2013, 06:59 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
I have two comments:
  1. Dave covered the first. I will emphasize that the tube is there for safety and is a USCG requirement.
  2. "Someone in the marina" would do everyone a favor if he shut his pie hole. In this case his advice was dangerous, even potentially deadly.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 12.149.140.242
Old 07-17-2013, 11:10 AM
Richie740's Avatar
Richie740 Richie740 is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks everyone for the replies and suggestions. It's interesting the comments that I received because I questioned removing this piece of the motor myself. The problem I have here is the guy that suggested this wasn't just some schmuck in the marina but rather one of the guys that runs the boat yard in the marina and likely the guys that are going to repair my fuel leak if I can't work it out myself

I'm going to the boat today to try and investigate a little more and I'll probably pull the carb (never done that before but it doesn't look like too difficult of a task). I'm thinking that at the least it needs a good cleaning and potentially needs to be rebuilt.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 07-17-2013, 11:48 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Chances are that your boatyard expert is unfamiliar with the older style updraft carbs that we have. In a downdraft carb, there is no need for a scavenge tube.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 07-17-2013, 12:06 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Lightbulb Not that bad

Richie, welcome to ur: world. For some reason "mechanics" who "think" they're good are more interested in fixing or selling you a diesel. A real mechanic of which there are few of left can work on diesels and these old engines which are far simpler. One of the biggest problems leading to their dislike is that most A-4;s are in tight quarters in small boats that they were DESIGNED for. Mine has been running for 43 years now~and I say that ain't to shabby.

Get yourself a carb kit and before breaking the carb apart read the directions! There are many good rebuild explanations on other threads, take a look. Get a pic or 2 as well of the installation and give us a basic description of your fuel system from the tank. When you pull the fuel line off the carb be sure to have a plug ready, an unused "nozzle" from a silicone tube works great and it will "fit" into almost any size you'd find on an A-4. Pulling the carb and old fuel lines will often CAUSE problems and replacing the fuel lines is cheap and just a good idea every 5 years or so anyway.

There are a few tricks to separating the carb, being careful to get the venturi loose so you don't bend the floats while splitting the gasket.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 64.134.234.5
Old 07-17-2013, 12:37 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Richie-
First, the boys are correct...
DON'T get rid of the scavenge tube.
That one instance of BAD advice should be enough incentive to get you inspired to work on the A4 yourself and not trust her to others.
Stay here and ask questions. Get the MMI A4 Manual and go to it.
Trust us. You can do it!

A couple of questions...
Can you describe how MUCH of a fuel leak you have?
Are we talking about a small drip or a steady stream of fuel?
Does it only leak while the engine (and fuel pump) are running?

This could be as simple as just needing to snug up the tube fitting to the bottom of the carb bowl.
Attached Images
 
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 12.149.140.242
Old 07-17-2013, 01:14 PM
Richie740's Avatar
Richie740 Richie740 is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks guys!

The leak was a pretty consistent drip drip every second or two without the engine running. Once I finally secured the petcock valve it slowed down considerably but still existed (even after I drained the carb bowl & replaced water separator inline before fuel pump).

The drip was definitely coming from scavenger tube at the bottom of the carb as in the picture above but I'm not 100% confident that's the source of the leak.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 07-17-2013, 01:30 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Thumbs up

rich,
You are right not to assume the source of the leak is the tube itself...since it is at the bottom of the carb, any fuel leaking out of the carb from anywhere could, and likely will, end up at the lowest point, the tube orifice, on its way down, and give the scanvenge tube the appearance of a leak.

If the boat doesn't already have one, I highly recommend the Moyer Service Manual & at least a few gaskets...a flange gasket where it connects to the manifold, & the bowl gasket so you can re-assemble the carb after cleaning. This should be your first order from Ken in the Moyer parts department.

Also, make sure to pick up some Permatex from your local auto boutique, or the hard-to-find nearby Wal-mart. There are several different kinds...Don Moyer highly recommends the #3 "Aviation Brand" which is in a white jar with a brush. We slather that stuff on most threaded connections (i.e. the brown stuff in Jerry's pic) to help seal the threads, and also often on gasket connections to aid the gasket. I wouldn't use it on the carb bowl gasket, but I would on most others...t-stat, side plate, valve cover, water pump, etc., because you will eventually have all those parts off.. Others like the #2 Permatex in a tube..slightly less runny. I also recently found some "high tack" Permatex, also in a jar and works similar to the #3.

I keep a jar at home and on the boat in case I grab an engine part and bring it home for work on the bench.

P.S.> I would not let that boatyard guy within 50 yards of my boat.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 07-17-2013 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
That boat yard guy sounds like he knows, either the Atomic Four, or up draft carbs, at least. He gave poor advice, but obviously knows a thing or two.

When you work on the charging system, the accept wisdom, is to start with a good fully charged battery. I think the same applies to the fuel system. You need to have a good clean functioning carb. This carb is quite simple, and easy to rebuild.

There is a lot of resources material here, so just do it. I know that you can!!
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 66.108.51.167
Old 07-18-2013, 01:21 PM
CalebD's Avatar
CalebD CalebD is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 899
Thanks: 18
Thanked 22 Times in 20 Posts
My 45 year old Atomic 4 has made something of a mechanic out of me. When I first met my Atomic 4 I had no idea that it had a water pump with a grease cap fitting. Now I can pop the carb off the engine in about 2 minutes.

Tools/materials you will need:
-socket wrench set
-white oil absorbent pads (for fuel as well)
-MMI A4 manual
-Permatex gasket goop
-spare gaskets
-(optional) gloves or hand degreaser
-(recommended) crappy work clothes so you can look like Bogey in the "African Queen".
Attached Images
 
__________________
Tartan 27 #328 owner born 1958
A4 and boat are from 1967
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CalebD For This Useful Post:
TimBSmith (12-04-2020)
  #13   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 07-19-2013, 12:07 AM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
OK, my $.02
The scavenge tube was common on early engines. Later engines did away with it. USCG regulations regarding.. no idea. My engine doesn't have one. But handy to have if your carb overflows and you get fuel in the throat. But a leak in the scavenge tube is not the problem that needs fixing.
If you're getting fuel in the throat, it's overflowing from the carb. I'd suspect that your float valve isn't working, possibly because a) you need a new needle/seat, or b) the float isn't floating. Address these issues and your problem will go away.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 68.56.139.11
Old 07-19-2013, 12:40 AM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
Al, are you saying that the later Atomic Four engines were delivered with no scavenge tube?

I had not heard that before.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 74.101.158.133
Old 07-19-2013, 06:45 AM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
Mine is one of the last ones made (casting date 02/25/80) and has the tube.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 76.7.135.1
Old 07-19-2013, 07:54 AM
Marian Claire's Avatar
Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,797
Thanks: 33
Thanked 129 Times in 94 Posts
Just to be clear. Is it not more determined by the type of carb vs type of engine. Early vs late. We have many "mixed" engines out there. My understanding is that the early carbs had internal passages that did the same thing as the scavenge tube. Is that correct? I have an early carb and no scavenge tube.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 07-19-2013, 07:58 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
The scavenge tube was common on early engines. Later engines did away with it.
Is there a source available for this information?

My information (cited below) is the scavenge tube was never done away with. In fact, if our engines were manufactured today they would still have it per USCG requirements.
Quote:
33 C.F.R. Subpart J—Fuel Systems
Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters

Title 33: Navigation and Navigable Waters
PART 183—BOATS AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT

Subpart J—Fuel Systems

§ 183.526 Carburetors.
(c) Each updraft and horizontal draft carburetor must have a device that:

(1) Collects and holds fuel that flows out of the carburetor venturi section toward the air intake;

(2) Prevents collected fuel from being carried out of the carburetor assembly by the shock wave of a backfire or by reverse air flow; and

(3) Returns collected fuel to the engine induction system after the engine starts,
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 96.229.18.9
Old 07-19-2013, 09:00 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Thumbs up Tube good!

All of the A-4 carbs have a scavenge tube. If you don't it's not a marine carb or for the A-4. The early cast iron carb had an internal one and the two "new style, 4 & 5 screw were equipped with an external one. I have seen a few that were removed and plugged~absolutely not a good idea. Many stationary duty motors with updraft carbs also used them as a fire safety precaution.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 07-19-2013, 11:17 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
OK, my $.02
The scavenge tube was common on early engines. Later engines did away with it. ...
Are you sure you're not thinking of the valve lifter galley oiler? Early engines had a small dia metal tube, visually similar to the scavange tube, connected from an oil port to a fitting on the valve lifter galley cover plate. Later engines did away with this.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 75.48.78.31
Old 07-19-2013, 12:05 PM
domenic's Avatar
domenic domenic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 467
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Al, are you saying that the later Atomic Four engines were delivered with no scavenge tube?

I had not heard that before.
My A4 is a 1968. It does not have a scavenger tube. Mine must be the female model of the A4.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 07-19-2013, 12:17 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Lightbulb Double check

Domenic, what carb are you using? I'd get one before you get boarded as they are std equipment on all A-4 marine engines.
If you have either of the late model carbs there is probably a plug in the carb and the manifold port for it. On the old cast iron carbs it is there but it is internal and vents to the manifold side of the carb base.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 76.7.135.1
Old 07-19-2013, 09:39 PM
Marian Claire's Avatar
Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,797
Thanks: 33
Thanked 129 Times in 94 Posts
Thanks for the confirmation. The MC is safe and legal with the early style cast carb, internal scavenge tube set up. Another twist to this, as far as I know, is that the early model manifold does not have the port for the scavenge tube pre tapped. Why would it. So anyone with a true early engine that added a late carb would have to create a port for the scavenge tube. The early manifolds have a "spot", it is just not tapped. You could also use the spacer from MMI, a much easier adaptation. So just check and see what carb you actually have and make it safe. Dan S/V Marian Claire
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 23.115.191.11
Old 12-03-2020, 11:45 PM
Golfdad75 Golfdad75 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 115
Thanks: 10
Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts
Size of carb main plug washer

Anyone know the size of the hard washer that fits the main plug on the carburetor
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 155.186.122.195
Old 12-04-2020, 10:15 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Golfdad, I don't know the size off the top of my balding head. Most good hardware and /or parts houses carry a variety of "fiber sealing washers" so with the "plug screw" you can find the proper size. Buy a few and keep them in your ditty box.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 23.115.191.11
Old 12-05-2020, 06:27 PM
Golfdad75 Golfdad75 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 115
Thanks: 10
Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts
Copper washer

A mechanic suggested a copper washer on the main plug in the carburetor. Any thoughts?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
carburetor, fuel leak, fuel pump carb pipe

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fuel Shutdown Issue gdasw Fuel System 17 06-20-2013 08:53 AM
Possible bad Facet fuel pump? TomG Fuel System 8 05-17-2011 05:23 PM
Fuel-Related Engine Shutdowns Don Moyer Fuel System 32 02-18-2011 04:36 PM
Facet fuel pump notes rigspelt Fuel System 3 01-03-2009 01:31 PM
Another ethanol question Bob N Fuel System 7 01-07-2007 06:22 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved