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Old 11-14-2007, 05:54 PM
Charles Akins Charles Akins is offline
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Propane conversion of the Atomic 4

Is anyone aware of an Atomic 4 propane conversion?

Propane would eliminate the water-fuel and the fuel pump problems. Modern propane carburetors work much better than those of a decade ago and cold starts are less of a problem today (I have been told). We used to have to have a dual fuel set up to start with gas and switch to propane when the engine warmed up.

Is there a basic problem with propane a boat motor fuel? It does burn too hot or is there some other problem?

I understand the there is some kinship between the Atomic 4, the old Universal Engine Company, and modern forklift engines. Is that true? Many forklifts run on propane so a conversion kit may be available.


Charles Akins
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:09 PM
Chip Hindes Chip Hindes is offline
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Propane and boats have what might best be termed a mixed relationship.

Propane gas is heavier than air and any unburned propane gas will accumulate in the bilge, waiting for a stray electrical spark to ignite it and blow your boat and the contents, including you if you're in the boat, to smithereens. The same can be said of gasoline, but unlike propane it is not naturally in a completely gaseous state at room temp and is easier to control and remove.

While it is true that many boats use propane as heating and cooking fuel, the safety issues are significant, including failsafe solenoid shutoff valves, sealed propane-proof enclosures and gravity overboard venting above the water line. It's not possible to gravity overboard vent your engine above the waterline and sealing the engine compartment in most boats would be difficult to impossible.

You're right, with all the similar forklift motors you could probably find a propane carburetor which would work on the A4. I imagine it would be pretty expensive and you might have quite a job getting it to work right. The real question is, what's the point? Gasoline is way easier to get than propane and most sailors don't burn that much anyway. With a properly optimized high compression motor you could probably get 50-60 HP form your A4, totally wasted 'cause the A4 has all the power you need to make hull speed, you can't drive the boat above hull speed anyway, and the motor wouldn't last very long making that kind of power. The main reason forklifts and other indoor motors use propane is that the exhaust when confined indoors is less toxic to humans. Not really an advantage in a sailboat.

Dual fuel motors are computer controlled.
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Last edited by Chip Hindes; 11-19-2007 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
william baker william baker is offline
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I am replying to Charles Akins about propane conversion. I have done it and I find no objection to or with the conversion process. It is safe and easy to handle; far better than gasoline under any conditions; can be purchased world wide. I have been very please with how efficient propane is;more so than gasoline and easier too handle than liquid with its' myriad problems. One of the surprising benefits is propane does not wash off oil from the walls of the cylinders lubricant necessary. It is readily available. easy to store, in any amount.Try that with Gas. It doesn't go bad. The cab is not affected in any way.Its ready to go at any moments notice; no fuss.You control the mixture to throttle.Extremely efficient; more so than gas. This fear of gas in the bilge is bogus. What boat hasn't a blower.? If you can smell it there is a leak. If you smell gasoline; so, no big deal . If you can't think through it you don't deserve it. That's said to everyone.Not you Charles. I don't ever recommend duel fuel because its not recommended by the experts on propane. Propane fouls a standard carburetor. But also a shut off solenoid is used for duel fuel. I turn it off at the tank. Done.Inexpensive conversion as well.I don't use used stuff.Your choice. The technology has evolved. The temp. of the engine is 160 degrees in summer with 80 degrees water and in winter 120 degrees; would be less if there were a through hull cooler. wobaker2011@gmail.com[/email]

Last edited by william baker; 08-15-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:16 PM
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About 12 days ago I asked a question or two about your propane fuel system in this thread.

I'm still interested in your reply.

Also, please elaborate on this statement:
Quote:
[propane is] . . . far better than gasoline under any condition.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:18 AM
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Boat fires from gasoline are dangerous enough. Imagine a explosion of the
type that takes out houses and turns them instanteously into toothpicks.
I think it is going from the frying pan into the dynamite.

Regards
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:50 AM
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Talking

I'm still cooking with pressurized kerosene on the Princess stove. Propane scares me.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:33 PM
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At least that's how I see it

I was hoping Mr. Baker would describe his propane system further on this or either of two other threads. Until he does we are left with our own experiences to draw upon in the discussion. In my first hand experience there are pro's and con's regarding propane as an engine fuel:

Pro's
  • No fuel pump required. The fuel is stored under pressure and flows toward the delivery end naturally.
  • No fuel filter required. The storage and refilling is via a totally closed system so there's virtually zero chance of contaminants.
  • No water contamination. Closed system again.
  • Engine oil remains cleaner longer.

Neither pro nor con, actually a wash
  • BTU's per gallon is roughly equal to gasoline.
  • True, gaseous fumes are heavier than air but so is gasoline.

Con's
  • Propane is stored under pressure, about 50 PSI. Any leak in the system will result in fuel depletion until the leak is found or the tank is emptied. Secondary pressure is less but I expect still greater than the 2 to 4 PSI we experience with our gasoline.
  • The tanks are cylindrical with hemispherical ends to withstand the pressure which can make for difficult or inefficient fit in odd shaped compartments aboard. I asked Mr. Baker specifically about this, hope to learn more about his installation when he replies.
  • Where do you refill? Not the marina fuel dock. Chances are you'll be transporting tanks yourself to and from the boat. I asked about this too.
  • The fuel must be warmed to change its physical state from liquid as stored in the tank to gaseous vapor for aspiration into the engine. My previous system had a heat exchanger to achieve this and the HX was a weak link, problematic from day one (Century Carburetion, the HX was their manufacture too).
  • Propane is a dry fuel, no lead or lead replacement additives and as such is murder on valves in old technology engines. I broke a compression ring in my 307 (can't say for sure it was a result of propane fuel but I'm suspicious to this day) and while rebuilding a replacement 327 I followed the stern advice of propane professionals of the era and installed cobalt valves and seats specifically to address the issue.
  • No in-dash fuel gauge. There was a mechanical gauge on the tank like forklifts have but the fuel could not be monitored during operation. This may be different now but was the situation in my case.
Not a subject of this thread but I'm also curious how a propane conversion more than doubles the value of a typical rebuilt A-4.
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-12-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Carl-T705 Carl-T705 is offline
 
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My Dad had an gasoline powered standby generator for his house in RI. It was an Onan 2 cylinder. Every time he needed it, that damn thing would never start. He contacted Onan and bought a propane carb kit that went into the gas carb he had, and that thing didn't turn over twice before it started right up and purred. It was just a couple of parts in the carb that got changed. No other part of the engine nor any different tuning. I have the generator now, but haven't ever used it. Propane is 100 octane. In it's natural state it is oderless but they put an additive in it to make it smell, so you know if you have a leak. I think it's a good mod to look into to.
I talked to a man that converted his Dodge Cummins diesel to propane and asked what he had to change for it to work. He said nothing on the engine. I don't know about that!
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:16 AM
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I would like to know how diesel to propane works.

Convert from a compression ignition to spark ignition? Lower the compression ratio?
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
...[*]Propane is a dry fuel, no lead or lead replacement additives and as such is murder on valves in old technology engines. ....
I can only add that I rebuilt a number of chrysler 318s cylinder heads back in the eighties that were run on propane. These were taxi cabs that had sometimes way over 200,000 miles on them. The original valve seats were worn so much that the valve heads were sometimes below the level of the iron. They were buried.
This wear, I later learned, came from the lack of cooling from that usually occured from the gasoline droplets hitting the hot valve seats. It could also be the lack of leaded fuel exacerbating the wear, but the propane cabs were really worn bad. All the rest of the engine functions were fine according to those mechanics, and they like them on balance. They were cab mechanics though.

We fixed the worn valve seats just as Niel did, with harder seat inserts and sometimes used truck valves that were much harder and meant for higher temps. We always saved those used truck valves to give to abused engines like cabs.

I think the spark advance curve is different for the burn rate of propane too. Is that true Niel?

I asked a couple of years ago if anyone had done a LPG A-4. LPG would address the heavier-than-air issue.

I cook with propane on my boat because it was there. It scares me a bit, but I have all the safe stuff installed and treat it with respect.

cheers all,

russ
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:45 AM
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I think the spark advance curve is different for the burn rate of propane too. Is that true Neil?
I can't answer intelligently but the performance of my el Camino was affected. To my knowledge there were no distributor modifications in my conversion. At cruising speed you couldn't tell the difference but it was definitely sluggish off the line. Right or wrong, at the time I attributed it to the lack of an accelerator pump in the carburetor.

Quote:
LPG would address the heavier-than-air issue.
Disagreement from me on this one. LPG (Liquified Petroleum Gas) is propane and is heavier than air like vaporized gasoline.

The only commonly used fuel I know of that is lighter than air is natural gas (methane) or CNG. You give up considerable BTU's/gallon compared to gasoline and the storage and refueling problems are even greater than LPG. My stove onboard is CNG, the fuel is stored in high pressure flasks that are essentially SCUBA tanks at 3000 PSI.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:48 AM
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uh, right, I meant natural gas. My BAD.
I think I meant to write LNG, not LPG. I will use "CNG" from now on.
Thank you Niel.

All this talk of fire makes me think cold cereal would be fine.

r.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:55 AM
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For reasons of accuracy and also to be a nit picking PITA there's a difference between CNG and LNG. I wasn't sure so I went looking and found this on the web:

CNG is compressed natural gas; LNG is liquefied natural gas which must be kept at temperatures near absolute zero. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG however requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of natural gas and the use of high pressures.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:50 AM
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With no other mods, converting a gasoline engine to propane will lower the power output a lot. In this regard, it really is no different than running E85 or race fuel (alcohol).

The regain some or all of that lost power you have to take advantage of the Octane rating. This allows you to do 3 things:

1) Increase compression (I've read up to 14:1 or more)
2) Advance the ignition
3) Forced Induction

(none of which applies to the A4)

And I think you misunderstood the diesel guy. Diesel owners don't convert to propane exclusively, they piggy back this secondary fuel source to the intake manifold for a power boost. Propane injection is to a diesel engine, what Nitrous is to a gasoline engine. The non technical term is "Bottle Feeding"

Just an FYI post. . .
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:39 AM
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CNG = methane in a scuba tank. Room temperature, high pressure. I have these tanks for my stove.
LNG = methane in an insulated tank (thermos type thing). Low pressure, but very cold - about -250 degrees F. More gas in a given tank, but AFAIK only used in tankers that ship the stuff. The tankers use the boil-off LNG to run their boilers and thus get their steam from what would otherwise be waste gas.
LPG = Propane and/or Butane. Turns liquid at about 200 PSI. Commonly used to run BBQ grills and forklifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
For reasons of accuracy and also to be a nit picking PITA there's a difference between CNG and LNG. I wasn't sure so I went looking and found this on the web:

CNG is compressed natural gas; LNG is liquefied natural gas which must be kept at temperatures near absolute zero. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG however requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of natural gas and the use of high pressures.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:49 AM
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I hope Mr. Baker returns to tell us the details of his propane fueled A-4. With a working engine he has worked through much of what has been discussed here.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:48 AM
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Propane carbs aren't hard to find. My issue would be that they were never designed to be used in a boat below decks and thus no ABYC/USCG approval and some real fun come insurance survey time. Then you have the situation of pulling up to a fuel dock and asking for 20 or 30 gallons of propane
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:10 AM
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After reading here about CNG, I believe now, that Cummins diesel was converted to CNG. It wasn't a power enhancer, it was what it was run on. the tank took a third of the PU truck bed. That's a pretty big space.
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:13 AM
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My mistake, the Cummins was converted to CNG as the only fuel source. The tank was 1/3 of the truck bed, that's a big nitrous bottle!
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
For reasons of accuracy and also to be a nit picking PITA there's a difference between CNG and LNG. I wasn't sure so I went looking and found this on the web:

CNG is compressed natural gas; LNG is liquefied natural gas which must be kept at temperatures near absolute zero. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG however requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of natural gas and the use of high pressures.
Not nit picking at all, that alphabet soup is confusing, good info is what I like, thanks.
I would really like to see an actual conversion too.

Russ
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Last edited by lat 64; 10-18-2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Boy, do I need an editor!
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:16 PM
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Thumbs up A couple of things

An ole flathead will run just fine on propane just not make quite the same power. Flatheads do not lend themselves to propane very well as achieving the necessary compression to not loose power will interfer with the breathing capability of a flathead!
The other downside is that when running propane temps in access of 200 are also necessary for good performance so it is out for a FWC motor and even with a HX the necessary temps can cause the HX to "carbonate the tubes" thus reducing the cooling capacity.
I have worked with a few propane/alchohol turbocharged engines for racing apps and they were awesome as far as power and extremely doscile to drive. One was a 509 BBC (502 with cleanup hone for new pistons). The engine is in a 1937 flatbead Chevy and is street legal. The goal is for 285 at Bonneville and with those gears she'll lite the tires at 85MPH just punching the throttle, not hard with 1780 HP available. It takes 3 tanks to feed the carbs, each tank can flow enough for around 700 HP. When driving on the street just one tank is hot and with the flip of a couple of switches the other two carbs start feeding too Hang on going for a spin!!!!!

I'd much rather deal with gas at 2.5 PSI than the preassures required for propane in a BOAT / BOMB if either leaks.

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Old 08-15-2013, 05:23 PM
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Propane conversion explained! (Who is John Galt)?

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Old 08-15-2013, 06:13 PM
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...Who is John Gault?
-Good one WB!
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:14 PM
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..Who is John Galt?
Uh, oh.... I'm going to have to pay close attention to this thread...

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Old 08-15-2013, 08:49 PM
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John Gault was the guy who put the ball in the ball point pen.
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