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  #51   IP: 50.67.146.231
Old 08-07-2018, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I was referring to excessive coil heat, the reason you're fabricating a heat sink.

Maybe but we have no evidence that's true. We hear about original coils lasting for decades.
Our experience is following a [coil] heat related shutdown, restored operation after cooling becomes shorter and shorter the more the damaged coil is used.Maybe it's just me but wouldn't you rather find out why the engine shuts down instead of throwing fresh parts at it, the same parts as the last time it shut down, over and over again?
Hi Neil...

I get your point.... however, I haven't worked around engines since high school and having to take apart and put back together a 5hp Briggs and Staten engine.

Now that I'm back into boating albeit sailing... the Atomic 4, I'm surprised
at how easy it is to work on.

As I removed the coil I found a crack from top to bottom on the old coil... I'm glad I went ahead to change it out and install the new coil along with the heat sink. Otherwise I would still be guessing at what could be the issues with the shut down.

Started the engine and ran it for 20 mins and went below to check on things... First thing I noticed was how hot even the new coil was, you couldn't even touch it, it was that hot. All the wiring was cool even all the connectors.

But what was amazing, the 20"L x 1/2" thick x 6" W aluminum plate was warm to the touch... So it was definitely doing it's job of pulling the heat away...

I going to put aside some time to trace every wire back to it's source function... I see from the many wiring diagrams for the Atomic 4 has only has two leads connected to the coil. But for now it's working and I'm going to carry a spare coil on board for just in case.

I am now concluding that the heated coil... maybe caused by the unknown leads attached to the + and - posts of the coil and should be explored soon and take them off and wire correctly.

When I first took ownership of the vessel... I must admit I was pretty intimidated by this engine. But not anymore, I give credit to the many Afourians for helping me out..

Cheers

mel
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:43 PM
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Mel, Sorry to have to say this, but it seems that you have completely missed the boat on what is causing your coil over-heat issue. Do yourself a favor and go to the parts store and buy an ignition resistor and install it on that nice aluminum plate you have made. I will guarantee that your coil temp will drop, probably drastically. If you're concerned about the quality of your spark you can do a quick test by using a 5th spark plug just laying on top of the motor and plugged into one of the plug wires. As has been pointed out before, there are many coils out there that have seen many seasons, in the stock mounting position, without failing.
Tom
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:20 PM
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As Tom says, you need to verify your coil's voltage and resistance.

Did you ever read the thread I suggested way back in post #27?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:05 PM
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I just installed the pertronix kit.
Used the MMI coil that already supposed to have resistance built in.

Does 'add a resistor' apply automatically or ONLY if the coil you're using does not have a certain amount of ohms built in?
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:31 PM
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Bill, Absolutely not, the Moyer supplied coil is designed with the right amount of resistance built in. While doing some coil testing a couple of years ago, I reduced the voltage, via an adjustable resister, and was surprised at how low I could go on the voltage. My comment about adding "a resister" was a "seat of the pants" cure for what is actually really a "math problem which should take into consideration the resistance of the coil and whether it is a points or electronic ignition system.
Tom
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
Whatcha makin’ there, Shawn? Do you know how to use that sewing machine over there, or does it belong to the cat?
To make sure I contribute to the thread, I have the same experience as Tom. You can keep the engine running supplying only 9-10 volts or so to the coil. (I did this with resistors in series ahead of the coil in my experiment.) If you use Moyer's coil, with its approximately 4.3 Ω resistance (that is from memory without looking it up), you should generally be fine in any electronic ignition application.

Mel, first, measure the static resistance across the (+) and (-) posts of a good coil (not cracked or that has previously killed the motor) with NOTHING hooked up to it. A standard voltmeter in (Ω) mode should handle this. If it is not 4+ Ω you are likely to continue to have issues if you are running electronic ignition. Second, you should know what the INPUT voltage is to the coil with the engine running (and not at idle ~700 RPM, measure it with the engine at normal cruise RPM..the alternator output is likely drastically different between those extremes.) This is measured on the coil (+) post while the ground on the meter is going somewhere like the mounting bracket on the alternator (NOT the (-) on the coil..this is not ground.)

Use Jerry's link to read the history on this..we've already been thru it..Post your voltage and resistance numbers and we will help you. (Neil has a cool/simple spreadsheet that does the math.) If your coil resistance is out of whack, or your input voltage is out of whack, it can be adjusted with an ignition resistor ahead of the coil to feed the coil the correct voltage to help avoid overheating. This is unlikely to be necessary if you are running the Moyer coil, however, we can still work around it otherwise. Places like NAPA sell various little ceramic ignition resistors with blade connectors you can add in front of the coil to lower input voltage if necessary.

I will also second or third the notion that once a coil has failed, its days are numbered. It will run for 45-60 minutes and die on you again and again, only after it cools off thoroughly. Get the input voltage right, and/or get the right coil, and solve the problem for good. I tried all the same things you did..moved the coil off the motor, had dual coils with quick change fittings, etc.

The problem was too much input voltage into the coil, and too little internal resistance inside the coil.. Once those issues were balanced out, I have had no coil related engine failures since. I do still run my coil off the engine mounted on the wall like yours, I see no problem with that! (except vertical..not sure if an oil filled coil is designed for horizontal mounting.)

Now, on to fun stuff, I don't want to sidetrack the thread too bad, but I will follow up on tender's post which I just saw this evening. First, everything obviously belongs to the cat, but, he let me use his room and equipment to make some cushions.

I worked in a sailloft as a youth and learned industrial sewing there in the early 90's. That sewing machine that you can't quite see is a 1950's vintage (I think) Viking/Husqvarna I got for free.

You can see in the first pic what I replaced..lovely 1977 plaid. I would never try to make something like this for anyone else, I'd lose money...but I am pleased with the outcome for my 40 year old sailboat. I sure am glad my wife picked a striped pattern I had to match up tops and bottoms for my first major sewing project in almost 25 years!

(I edited this several times adding more detail on the coil part..sorry it got so long, but I think this is an important subject, especially for new owners..don't relive the crap I already did!!!)
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Old 08-08-2018, 02:10 PM
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Hi All...

Thanks for the input sorry for my delay.... I do need to work to pay the bills.

All good points.... I bought a solid core on the coil with the built in resistor on the specs it reads 4.5 ohms.

So to answer the question I do not have EI...

I still have a Delco rotor (identified by the two screws mounting the rotor cap) with still the points and condenser... which I plan to change out later.

I will get a multi meter and run the tests as suggested... and will post the results later today
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Old 08-08-2018, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
Mel, Sorry to have to say this, but it seems that you have completely missed the boat on what is causing your coil over-heat issue. Do yourself a favor and go to the parts store and buy an ignition resistor and install it on that nice aluminum plate you have made. I will guarantee that your coil temp will drop, probably drastically. If you're concerned about the quality of your spark you can do a quick test by using a 5th spark plug just laying on top of the motor and plugged into one of the plug wires. As has been pointed out before, there are many coils out there that have seen many seasons, in the stock mounting position, without failing.
Tom
My choice to select and replace the old coil is from the info gleamed not just from my post but other threads as well...

So I went with a solid core coil with a built in resister...

I bought my coil from Lordco rather than Napa.. although good suggestions by all the one thing nobody or at least I haven't read it on any of the threads the running temperature of a coil...

I've read that the resister is supposed to be between the ignition and coil and some have installed it between coil and rotor.

Which leads me after testing the ohms... and voltage. Do I still need a resister if there is one already built in on my solid core coil.

I looked closely at the old one to see if there was an origin of manufacture... non found which leads me to believe it most like produced by a second tier manufacturer in some country other than the US.

Being as curious as I am in life... I'm going to test the ohms and output

This is getting terribly frustrating having to chase down someone's else's wiring abortion.

Other than that, the boat is excellent condition

Cheers all
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Old 08-08-2018, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
To make sure I contribute to the thread, I have the same experience as Tom. You can keep the engine running supplying only 9-10 volts or so to the coil. (I did this with resistors in series ahead of the coil in my experiment.) If you use Moyer's coil, with its approximately 4.3 Ω resistance (that is from memory without looking it up), you should generally be fine in any electronic ignition application.

Mel, first, measure the static resistance across the (+) and (-) posts of a good coil (not cracked or that has previously killed the motor) with NOTHING hooked up to it. A standard voltmeter in (Ω) mode should handle this. If it is not 4+ Ω you are likely to continue to have issues if you are running electronic ignition. Second, you should know what the INPUT voltage is to the coil with the engine running (and not at idle ~700 RPM, measure it with the engine at normal cruise RPM..the alternator output is likely drastically different between those extremes.) This is measured on the coil (+) post while the ground on the meter is going somewhere like the mounting bracket on the alternator (NOT the (-) on the coil..this is not ground.)

Use Jerry's link to read the history on this..we've already been thru it..Post your voltage and resistance numbers and we will help you. (Neil has a cool/simple spreadsheet that does the math.) If your coil resistance is out of whack, or your input voltage is out of whack, it can be adjusted with an ignition resistor ahead of the coil to feed the coil the correct voltage to help avoid overheating. This is unlikely to be necessary if you are running the Moyer coil, however, we can still work around it otherwise. Places like NAPA sell various little ceramic ignition resistors with blade connectors you can add in front of the coil to lower input voltage if necessary.

I will also second or third the notion that once a coil has failed, its days are numbered. It will run for 45-60 minutes and die on you again and again, only after it cools off thoroughly. Get the input voltage right, and/or get the right coil, and solve the problem for good. I tried all the same things you did..moved the coil off the motor, had dual coils with quick change fittings, etc.

The problem was too much input voltage into the coil, and too little internal resistance inside the coil.. Once those issues were balanced out, I have had no coil related engine failures since. I do still run my coil off the engine mounted on the wall like yours, I see no problem with that! (except vertical..not sure if an oil filled coil is designed for horizontal mounting.)

Now, on to fun stuff, I don't want to sidetrack the thread too bad, but I will follow up on tender's post which I just saw this evening. First, everything obviously belongs to the cat, but, he let me use his room and equipment to make some cushions.

I worked in a sailloft as a youth and learned industrial sewing there in the early 90's. That sewing machine that you can't quite see is a 1950's vintage (I think) Viking/Husqvarna I got for free.

You can see in the first pic what I replaced..lovely 1977 plaid. I would never try to make something like this for anyone else, I'd lose money...but I am pleased with the outcome for my 40 year old sailboat. I sure am glad my wife picked a striped pattern I had to match up tops and bottoms for my first major sewing project in almost 25 years!

(I edited this several times adding more detail on the coil part..sorry it got so long, but I think this is an important subject, especially for new owners..don't relive the crap I already did!!!)

Thanks Shawn!! I will do as suggested... wow love the new upholstery !!
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Old 08-08-2018, 04:18 PM
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Beautiful cushions there, Shawn, great work. I love sewing but am QUITE sure I will not choose a pattern like that when I hack together my replacements! Matching that stuff up is a real skill...that I don’t have.
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Old 08-08-2018, 04:45 PM
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Thanks all! Sorry for the hijack...

Mel, Sorry I assumed you were using EI. EI seems to bring in another little issue where we have deduced (oh boy, this is from memory again, someone please correct me if I screw it up) that more internal resistance is needed to reduce the coil input voltage because the dwell is too short with EI (and not adjustable which apparently it may be with points) so the coil has more saturation time and burns itself out as compared to running with points where the saturation time between fires is less (more dwell).

I agree that one of the most frustrating things is fixing the PO's work. I had all kinds of weird stuff going on and eventually re-wired it all from scratch; from the battery to starter to the key to the coil to the engine block ground.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:06 PM
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Cool My LAST time asking this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion C&C 33 View Post
Which leads me after testing the ohms... and voltage. Do I still need a resister if there is one already built in on my solid core coil.
Did you read this post yet?
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Did you read this post yet?
Hi Jerry...

Yes I've read the thread... tested the coil as suggested

Findings for my coil + terminal to - terminal 4 ohms

Engine running output was 12.99 volts. + terminal to ground on engine block.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong on the testing...

I've provided a photo of the specs on the box in which the coil came in... This is getting more and more confusing for me.. As I was rummaging thru a storage compartment I found another coil on board same thing it was cracked as well.

So I'm to conclude this is chronic condition... even it has a voltage conditioner internally

I am now starting to believe that the present replacement coil will suffer the same fate as it's predecessors.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:38 PM
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The box says the primary resistance is 0.7 ohms. No external resistor? Yep, you're doomed to another failure.

If your NEW coil requires a ballast resistor, you need it when you install the coil, not later, after the damage has been done.

All the necessary info is here. You just need to apply it.

Bill
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
The box says the primary resistance is 0.7 ohms. No external resistor? Yep, you're doomed to another failure.

If your NEW coil requires a ballast resistor, you need it when you install the coil, not later, after the damage has been done.

All the necessary info is here. You just need to apply it.

Bill
Thanks Bill.... The auto parts guy say there is a built in resister when he checked the specs on the coil on line.

I'm beginning to believe despite what was said at Lordco... I'm going to add a ceramic resister as Jerry has suggested from another thread on another post.

This as all new to me so so forgive me on my slow uptake on absorbing all this.
Once this is completed and working on par as it should be, at the end of the sailing season I'm going to re-build my carburetor.... and that will be another can of worms. Hopefully not!

Again thanks Bill... much appreciate your input.

Cheers

Mel
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:15 PM
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This is easily solved in one step but it must be followed to the letter. Buy a new coil by calling the Moyer Marine parts line. Do not go to NAPA, do not go to Lordco, do not buy a resistor, do not buy the new coil online and do not use Moyer Marine's online ordering function. YOU MUST SPEAK WITH KEN in Moyer Marine Parts.

We can discuss all the reasons why at a later time but the goal right now is to get this fixed properly and following the above advice faithfully will do so.

Also, please provide a picture of the distributor with the cap removed.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
This is easily solved in one step but it must be followed to the letter. Buy a new coil by calling the Moyer Marine parts line. Do not go to NAPA, do not go to Lordco, do not buy a resistor, do not buy the new coil online and do not use Moyer Marine's online ordering function. YOU MUST SPEAK WITH KEN in Moyer Marine Parts.

We can discuss all the reasons why at a later time but the goal right now is to get this fixed properly and following the above advice faithfully will do so.

Also, please provide a picture of the distributor with the cap removed.
Hi Neil

This will have wait till next week... Your suggestion although pointed is sound.
It's just that I have spent a tremendous amount of time on this engine and my clients needs have been put on the back burner...

I have put on a resister now, don't cringe your post came in, while I was tinkering about and got the details for the part from another member.
The picture provides shows the resister mounted temporary while running the engine to test things out

Since installing the resister... the coil has cooled down considerably if I can equate it to no more than a warm cup of tea. Sorry I can't do much better than this analogy... But I simply do not have access to an infrared temperature reader.

I did however find another 2 dead coils squirrelled away in the recesses of my boat... Thus making it 4 in total.

So I am lead to conclude this has been an issue with this motor for a very long time.

Enough fixing there is nothing more than I can do... I am carrying a spare coil on board have planned this trip for a while so I'm heading off this weekend.

But I will take your suggestion.... and act on when I get back.

Cheers

Mel
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:53 PM
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Mel, please report back about the performance with the resistor when you have some time. Let's hope everything worked OK.
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Old 08-20-2018, 05:08 PM
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Mel, please report back about the performance with the resistor when you have some time. Let's hope everything worked OK.
Hi Shawn...

Just returned from a week long trip... Sorry for my delay in response folks.

Since wind / current conditions were not favourable at times especially going thru the many passes with strong currents the coil and engine worked perfectly...

As I have said earlier, that I do not have a thermal reader... I can only tell you that the many hours of the engine running both at the dock testing and the many hours of traveling under power, the coil remained Luke warm...

It was 4.3 ohms across the terminal and voltage output was 12.3 or there about.
engine temp never changed much, ran at 140 degrees on the gauge and 160 degrees fighting the currents in places like Active and Poliers Pass @ 2000 rpm

She never stalled and seems to be running fine.... It's nice to know with the many suggestions that I have followed as best I could with the limited knowledge, I did however manage to eliminate any other possible causes. Even though at times I found it frustrating because some were dead end leads... even though the suggestions was sincere.

I have finally begun to trust my engine and that is of great importance to me.

The goal also was to know my engine... since a trip next year to Desolation Sound is planned, I feel much better knowing the quirks of my engine and to do any repairs or fixes if so required.

There are no services for parts or even a mechanic for all that matters in an area like Desolation Sound and towing costs would be horrendous to bring her out !!! So yes, I better know my engine.

I do thank all those who submitted their thoughts and ideas...

Cheers

mel

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Old 08-20-2018, 11:14 PM
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Mel, thanks for the update...it is indeed a good thing to trust the motor. I was exactly where you were several years ago. That is why we are lucky to have this forum.
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:52 AM
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Trip?

Hey Mel,

Where did you go for your week? How was the smoke?

We are off to Jedediah on the weekend, weather (and smoke) permitting.
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:58 PM
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Hey Marty...

Had a wonderful time sailing around the Salt Spring and Saturna Island...
Fun collecting a few oysters... Then we all panicked because we could absolutely confirm any Red tide contamination.

But still complimented our dinners with fresh caught crab and of course no meal is complete without a few select vintage of wine from Osoyoos!!

I'm just in the process to move my boat south of the border to Pt Roberts... to make travel to the islands 9 nautical miles instead of 29 miles.

I think my better half and guests have had enough of Sandheads and the crazy unpredictable waters coming in and out.

The smoke made for some mighty dramatic sunrises and sunsets.... coming home we had visibility of one mile crossing the straight back home, lots of fun!

Happy sailing and safe travels Marty...

Mel

Last edited by Orion C&C 33; 08-24-2018 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Mel, thanks for the update...it is indeed a good thing to trust the motor. I was exactly where you were several years ago. That is why we are lucky to have this forum.
Thanks Shawn... Yes this is a great forum indeed !!!

Cheers Mate !!

Mel
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Old 08-24-2018, 09:07 PM
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fuel cage

I don't have one but I think I need one ..

What PSI should it read , can I get one from harbor Freight ? its on the
way to the boat ?
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Old 08-26-2018, 12:12 PM
Marty Levenson Marty Levenson is offline
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Galiano?

Hey Mel,

Did you consider keeping your boat in Montague? When we lived in Kits we put a mooring down in Montague Harbour, and that worked great for us. Cost $2000 all in, which we recouped when we moved to Bowen (minus diver inspections every other year). We kept our boat there early May - mid September and took the ferry over from Tsawassen most weekends. Kept our dinghy at the government dock - about $30 a summer at the time. That was our base for years of exploring the Gulf Islands.

Next trip consider checking out Wallace Island's Conover Cover and bombproof Annette on Prevost...?

If you get to Bowen give a shout! martylev (at) telus.net

-Marty
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