Oil in the bilge

[tartansailboat]

The owner of the boat next to mine in my marina, an old Ranger 30 with an A4, popped his head up and screamed, oil in the bilge! Sure'nuff, sticking a finger in his bilge and I came up with black goo. I checked the dipstick and the level was about normal, maybe a little lower than full but not low enough to have to add oil. Searched all over the engine with my hand, the accessibility is just awful, took several minutes just to put back the dipstick, but could not find any real leak, just grime. Any suggestions where to look further?

[Mo]

Well, he will need to spray the engine down with engine cleaner and scrub it with a brush. Put absorbent pads in the bilge and under the engine. May be a mixture of oil and water in bilge.

When cleaning the engine clean under and the sides of the base pan as well. Pay particular attention to clean around the front and rear of the engine as well. Line the area under the engine with the pads and start it up and see where the leak is coming from.

Common causes:
-rear seal
-pin hole in base pan.
-if he has an oil filter installed check fittings and lines as well.

Keep in mind that oil floats on water so perhaps less there than you think. Need to find where it came from though.

[ndutton]

1. Does he have an alarm system installed? Yes=good, No=get one
2. Does he carry spare oil on board in those flimsy plastic containers? You know, the ones Vetus mufflers were patterned after? (did I just say that?) Have him check his stores if he does.
3. Tailshaft seal and oil pressure sender nipple are high on my list of the usual suspects.

[tartansailboat]

thanks for the tips. He has no alarm and basically the whole boat is a mess. I will pass on your advice about cleaning up the bilge and the engine and placing pads to see the leak. I dont see any seepage at the rear seal or where the shaft emerges from the tranny. But the poor quality of the whole installation and the large amount of rust makes me think of a pinhole in the oil pan as a likely source. I will let you all know what my neighbor finds out.

[roadnsky]

I have a RANGER 30 ('78)
There is a separate "Engine Bilge" that would need to overflow quite a bit of fluid (10-15 gallons ) before anything would reach the actual bilge.
Thatsa-lottsa fluid!

Are you talking about this engine area or the actual bilge?

On top of that, my engine access is excellent, if not luxurious. (?)

Are you sure it's a Ranger 30?

One thing not yet mentioned. Did he change or fill oil recently?
Possible OVER filling?

[Kelly]

This may be a long shot, but the grimiest bilges can have water in them that resemble oil given all the biological growth and slime. In technical terms we call this "gunk" and it can easily be confused with oil as it is slippery, nearly black and sticks to anything that touches it. Smells bad, too.

Just a thought.

[tartansailboat]

Jerry, this bilge is just forward of the engine, I will try to get a photo when I can. Not to demean the R30 but compared to my Tartan 30 with the engine just aft the mast and accessible from all 4 sides, it is less than desirable. When you cannot see the dipstick hole..... and trying to get two hands on the stuffing box nuts....

Kelly, the black deposit that stuck to my finger certainly fits your description of gunk but I didn't notice any foul smell.

[Dave Neptune]

Tatran, the "gunk" is probably and accumilation over years. The detergents in the oil will allow it to mix with the water and the dirt stuff in the oil settles out and turns to "gunk". If it is "leaking" there should also be a bit of oil floating on the top too.
If you can shine a lite and see under the engine with a mirror too look for a clean spot or trail leading to a low spot where it will dri[p~remember Newton and his apple". I often cut out a clean piece or pieces of cardboard to place under the engine and run her for a bit. The claen cardboard will indicate the leaks above.
The parts listed are quite common but not necessarily the pan as it is really thick and takes a lot of rusting to leak.

Dave Neptune

[sailhog]

Just a suggestion: I had oil in the bilge and found the leak to be a failed valve cover gasket. The oil was seeping out aft end of the valve gallery side. It wouldn't leak until the engine was warmed up. MMI sells the gasket for $5 or so.

[tenders]

The raw water pump also has an oil seal in it, facing the engine, which can leak if the impeller shaft is worn, wobbles, or has been removed and replaced so many times that the edges of the seal are damaged. The seal is designed to keep oil in the engine where the impeller shaft enters the block.

There are actually two seals around the impeller shaft: the oil seal, and an identical seal which faces the impeller chamber and is designed to keep water where it belongs. The water seal is an infamous source of A4 leaks, but the oil seal is every bit as susceptible to failure.

In either case, the leaking liquid drips out the weep hole, which is a little slot the size of a few grains of rice facing down (so it's hard to see), in between the oil and water seals on the pump. You can check it by running a white paper towel underneath the pump while it's running. Also, oil (or water) will be running down the engine mount right below the pump.

[JOHN COOKSON]

How's the oil pressure doing? If the needle is bouncing around the (alleged) leak is most likely in the oil pressure adjustment area.
Maybe all that needs to be done is to tighten the oil pressure adjustment doohicky down a bit.

TRUE GRIT

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by tartansailboat

Jerry, this bilge is just forward of the engine, I will try to get a photo when I can. Not to demean the R30 but compared to my Tartan 30 with the engine just aft the mast and accessible from all 4 sides, it is less than desirable. When you cannot see the dipstick hole..... and trying to get two hands on the stuffing box nuts....

Kelly, the black deposit that stuck to my finger certainly fits your description of gunk but I didn't notice any foul smell.

It must be gunk.
Unless someone cut a big hole in the pan under the engine there's no way for oil to get into the bilge.

The bilge on my Ranger 30 is in the middle of the cabin.
(on top of the keel)

In the engine pic you can see the WHITE area under the A4. That's a totally enclosed "bilge" area of it's own.

On my R30, I have an access port on the starboard side that I have excellent access to the rear of the engine.
I can understand you guys with Tartans and C30s feeling the rest of us have limited access to our engines.

[tartansailboat]

thanks all for the suggestions. Right now I am afraid that the engine compartment and the whole boat in general is so messed up that only a good cleaning will determine if the problem is truly a leak or accumulation of grime. My neighbor, young single guy, spends more time "entertaining" than cleaning. But I will pass the information on.

Jerry, my neighbor's boat's interior looks little like yours but it is so messy that it is hard to make the comparison. The "bilge area" that I am talking about is not where yours is but rather directly in front of the engine. But it looks like dripping from the shaft seal accumulates in that area and my neighbor does have a bilge pump there. I am confused about your nice photo showing the rear of the A4 with the dipstick in plain view. I am sure if I stuck my small camera through the access in the port lazaret, I could get such a view but in no way can I see the dipstick. His boat may be a R29, is there a big difference?

[mikeysail]

There is a big difference between the R29 and R30 in terms of engine access. The rear of the R29 engine is primarily accessible from the STARBOARD lazarette.
Mike

[mikeysail]

Sorry about the dual post, but the R29 dipstick IS accessible from a small cutout in the engine compartment wall under the galley sink. It takes some practice to pull and replace the dipstick.
Mike

[tartansailboat]

Mike, I think you are correct and I got my port and starboard names confused. the main access is via the starboard lazaret but there is also access from inside, from the port quarter berth via a sliding panel, but not a lot. My neighbor may not know about a hatch under the galley sink because he pulled the dipstick and tried to put it back in from the starboard lazaret. So this boat must be a R29. Sorry Jerry, I thought there was only one Ranger in the 30 foot range.

I had the same problem with poor access when I looked at a Sabre 28 some years ago. I asked the owner to pull the dipstick so I could see the oil level and he declined because he said it normally takes 20 mins to put it back in, very poor access. So when I saw my present boat, the T30, with all kinds of engine access, I was sold. May not be the best boat in the marina but you sure can service the engine!

In any case, the whole inside is a real mess and cleaning up to find the leak, if indeed there is an oil leak and not just gunk, will be job that I am not sure he is willing to do. Oh well.....

[ndutton]

Originally Posted by tartansailboat

the accessibility is just awful, took several minutes just to put back the dipstick . . . . . . I had the same problem with poor access when I looked at a Sabre 28 some years ago. I asked the owner to pull the dipstick so I could see the oil level and he declined because he said it normally takes 20 mins to put it back in, very poor access.

Your neighbor is not the first but you can save the day by recommending this.

[roadnsky]

Now it's making more sense to me.
Must be a different model for sure. I think quite a bit older too.

FWIW, my quarter berth is on the starboard side and the galley to port.
And the aft area of my engine has room to crawl back there to do work.
(Which I did when I re-did my exhaust)

Now let's see if we can figure out if he's got a leak?

[tartansailboat]

Neil, that is really cool, I will pass it on.

Jerry, there is absolutely no room in the port quarter berth to do anything more than look and maybe get one hand in there, certainly no room to work on the stuffing box, amazing how one foot makes such a difference.

I will pass on the information to clean everything up and hunt for the leak from scratch, if there really is a leak.

Thanks all.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by tartansailboat

Jerry, there is absolutely no room in the port quarter berth to do anything more than look and maybe get one hand in there, certainly no room to work on the stuffing box, amazing how one foot makes such a difference.

Different designer AND even builder.

You're right tho. Hard to believe such a difference with just that one foot...