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Old 09-02-2018, 07:20 PM
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Sudden Shutdown and no re-start

Yesterday had a sudden shutdown on the boat and thought I might pass it along.

We were cruising at 5kts for about an hour and my sister and brother in law was with us. Engine suddenly shuts down. First thing comes to mind is coil. Checked for spark immediately...lots of good spark.

Pulled choke and tried restart...nothing; no signs of an attempt to start despite winding it over and trying different throttle and choke positions. We'd been hiking on islands and had the zodiac with a 4 hp with us...tied that to the stb quarter and Tony fired up the outboard and we made it 1/4 mile to the dock without difficulty. Dark was setting in so we unpacked our gear and headed home.

7am this morning I'm up and head to the boat to sort out the issue before it gets hot. Engine shut down suddenly and I have fire, so my first thought is the electronic fuel pump quit. Hauled a water bottle from the recycling bag and removed the rubber fuel line going to carb. Placed the hose into the bottle and turned over the engine...just a few drops of nice clean fuel.

Spare facet fuel pump 1.5 to 4 psi was put on. Took about 1/2 an hour including changing the inline filter while I was at it. I have my inline filter just before the fuel pump and the line from the pump goes directly to the carb. Boat fired right up...used it all afternoon island hopping again with family.

Thought this might help someone trouble shoot.
-Engine quit, did not stutter to a stop, it stopped suddenly,
-checked fire-good,
-tried restart with various choke and throttle settings-nothing.
-I could hear the pump thumping but didn't even bother hauling a plug to see if it was dry. Knew I had a fuel issue and most likely the pump...so I checked that first.

My electric pump was on there 11 years and it was no shame for it to quit.
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Old 09-02-2018, 07:37 PM
Bratina Bratina is online now
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Do you have an inline fuel pressure gauge? It would have pointed directly to an issue with fuel delivery, saving the time of troubleshooting the coil, no?
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:19 PM
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http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=10834
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:25 PM
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Sure it was the pump and not the inline filter? How long are those filters supposed to last? I should probably replace mine this winter, it's been a long time.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratina View Post
Do you have an inline fuel pressure gauge? It would have pointed directly to an issue with fuel delivery, saving the time of troubleshooting the coil, no?
I always check "fire" first on an abrupt shut down. Most of the time it is coil related. It took 10 minutes to trouble shoot the problem and about 20 minutes to put the new pump on. The night it happened we checked fire...that was there so I knew I had a fuel issue. With guests on board and so close to the dock there was no sense in opening up fuel lines at that time.
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1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
Sure it was the pump and not the inline filter? How long are those filters supposed to last? I should probably replace mine this winter, it's been a long time.
I change my filters every spring prior to launch. I'm getting older and not sailing as much as I once did so I burn about 35 gallons of gas a year now. Always premium and always stabil added to gas can prior to pouring it into the boat as well.

I checked the old pump yesterday evening thinking I might use it for pumping out a tank or something if needed. It clicks yet just a few drops come out so it was the pump. I'm not sure many people know this but electric fuel pumps generally work well right up until they quit. Sometimes it's corrosion of wires that causes it and sometimes the pump mechanism just fails.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 09-03-2018 at 07:34 AM.
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  #7   IP: 108.45.44.91
Old 09-03-2018, 10:34 AM
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If this is a Facet pump, it sounds a lot like the "stuck ball" problem I've had on 2 pumps over a 9 year period.

It's easy to check and remedy. There's a 7/8" hexagonal boss on the bottom of the pump. It's a bayonet fitting. Just use a wrench to release it and pull it off. Be ready to catch the gas (less than a cup) that will come out.

Inside the base, the lower end of a spring-loaded check valve ball is visible. Press it gently with a fingertip. It should move easily. If not, apply a little more force until it snaps free with a "click". It should now move freely, and operate fine when reassembled.

Unfortunately, I've found that once a pump has this problem, its going to reoccur if the pump isnt operated frequently, at least once a week. But this 2-minute fix can get you going quickly and avoid a tow.
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Old 09-03-2018, 11:06 AM
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Here's the one I use Ed...I'll need to pick up another one to have on the boat. 11 years out of the previous one wasn't bad. When I refit the boat 11 years ago I made the side bulkhead on both sides of the engine removable. The fuel pump is mounted on the removable bulkhead with enough wiring and hose to push it back out of the way and access the engine. Have to say though, it made for a very easy swap-out. 3 to 4.5 psi is what was avail when I got them...worked well.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 09-03-2018 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:21 PM
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Don't want to take anything away from the more robust Facet model that Moyer sells but I used the same Facet "cube" model mounted on bulkhead [lower than tank and at 45 degrees] for 20 seasons and just replaced it this last spring. Paper work showed the old model was advertised @ 2 to 4 psi and new one is 1.5 to 4 psi. The addition of fuel pressure gauge before the carb [thank you N Dutton] shows steady slightly less than 3psi. My 1966 early model A4 runs great with this set up. [Once in a great while I get a slight momentary hesitation and I hear pump start clicking]
The old pump with a filter worked well enough to pump out/clean the tank until it got clogged a couple of times. I read on the Facet web site that they call for a min 78 micron filter prior to the pump. I have always used a not so "kosher" hi impact glass filter [wrapped in foam] where I can periodically change out the 40 micron filter membrane [also like to see what's happening in the filter] A small metallic silver filter came with the pump and I opted not to use it due to its small size and unknown micron spec.
My only concern is that I have recently read old posts from Don and others to use 2 filters, 10 micron [or less] filters post tank AND pre carb. I am not sure that this little "cube" has the power to pull and push through this filtration, especially with old fuel tanks that are difficult to thoughly clean. Guess there is a trade off.
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  #10   IP: 24.224.195.189
Old 09-03-2018, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Don't want to take anything away from the more robust Facet model that Moyer sells but I used the same Facet "cube" model mounted on bulkhead [lower than tank and at 45 degrees] for 20 seasons and just replaced it this last spring. Paper work showed the old model was advertised @ 2 to 4 psi and new one is 1.5 to 4 psi. The addition of fuel pressure gauge before the carb [thank you N Dutton] shows steady slightly less than 3psi. My 1966 early model A4 runs great with this set up. [Once in a great while I get a slight momentary hesitation and I hear pump start clicking]
The old pump with a filter worked well enough to pump out/clean the tank until it got clogged a couple of times. I read on the Facet web site that they call for a min 78 micron filter prior to the pump. I have always used a not so "kosher" hi impact glass filter [wrapped in foam] where I can periodically change out the 40 micron filter membrane [also like to see what's happening in the filter] A small metallic silver filter came with the pump and I opted not to use it due to its small size and unknown micron spec.
My only concern is that I have recently read old posts from Don and others to use 2 filters, 10 micron [or less] filters post tank AND pre carb. I am not sure that this little "cube" has the power to pull and push through this filtration, especially with old fuel tanks that are difficult to thoroughly clean. Guess there is a trade off.
Hi Sam, Those are good pumps. When I bought that pump and installed it I hadn't even heard of MMI. I'd bought the boat, refurbished or replaced just about everything on it in 2007. Being half decent at engines I'd left the "left for dead" engine until last. Took me a week or so to figure it out and I wandered through fuel system, ignition system, seized valves (removed cleaned and re-seated valves) and cooling systems to get it going. In the end, I find out about MMI and get online. It was there I was pointed to the exhaust manifold fracture that leaked and was putting water into cylinders / water into the oil /base pan. Learned allot about the Atomic 4 on that first go around with it. But my pump lasted 11 years...pretty good.

My pump has to draw fuel up and horizontal over near the cockpit floor, through a filter / water separator, then downhill to an inline filter just before the pump. From the pump there's a run of hose directly to the carb. The pumps come with a small filter but I don't use it and this is the second time I've had a fuel issue in 11 years...once was water in gas, the other was this failed pump. I think I did OK for 11 years
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Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 09-03-2018 at 10:35 PM.
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