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  #1   IP: 75.157.220.103
Old 01-19-2020, 08:51 PM
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will it do any harm using 5/30 oil in my A-4

Hi Folks,

Just stopped by Costco today and picked up some 5/30 wt. oil.

Noticed on the survey results from a while back that nobody is using this oil.

I live in Vancouver, Canada and am wondering if it will do anything bad to my great running engine.

Just had some bluish exhaust smoke show up following the use of Seafoam and then MMO for the last few tankfuls of fuel, and now waiting to put in fresh straight fuel and do another oil change. I am hoping the smoke is coming from the crud loosened up by the additives. I have always had some blow-by fumes but this engine starts well and purrs along like a kitten so not thinking anything terminal yet. Possibly worn rings?

Anyway main question is re. this grade of oil.

Many thanks as always - Gordon Foster 1972 Columbia 30 with A-4
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Old 01-20-2020, 02:48 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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From what you described a wet and dry compression test would be good idea.
If the compression is OK you will have some baseline numbers going forward.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:14 AM
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To chime in on your oil question, I don't think it's a big issue but keep an eye on your oil pressure. As for the exhaust smoke, there is a good chance it is a byproduct of the additives or at least they're contributing to it. I know with 1% MMO in my fuel I get a wisp of smoke that did not exist prior to using it as a fuel additive.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:15 AM
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I would not use that oil. 5w30 is too thin IMHO and modern car oil has too little zinc and too much anti-friction additives for an old engine. I use Rotella 15w40 oil intended for diesels with good results.
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:16 PM
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Best oil to use ?

I heard from an owner that he uses 15/40 rotella and have Also heard that 40 weight oil can clog the oil passages. Can we use 40 weight oil safely in an A4 or should I stick to some other multi grade oil. Would it reduce blow by ?
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:44 PM
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You may find this FAQ from Don Moyer helpful. The 'benefit' you are seeking (reduced blowby) differs from the one Don mentions (higher pressure reading), but, as often happens, there are tradeoffs to consider. -Jack

"We prefer straight 30 weight detergent oil in the Atomic 4, simply because the engines are usually used at a constant power setting, and mostly during the warm part of the year (which doesn’t really require a multi-viscosity oil). Later Universal owner’s manuals did list multi-viscosity oils as a suitable substitute to straight viscosity oils, but we can’t find where they ever recommended over a 10-30 weight.

"The downside to using heavier than recommended oil is that (while the pressure might be reassuringly high on the gauge in the cockpit), the head loss in oil pressure between the port where it enters each bearing in the center, to the outside of the bearing, is much greater as oil thickness increases. This means that the outer edges of each bearing (crankshaft and cam) is getting somewhat less than designed oil pressure. – Updated: May 26, 2004"
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:37 PM
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Thanks for all the replies but.........

All I really wanted to know was - Can I put 5/30 wt oil in my A4 or should I take it back to the store.

I appreciate all the replies, but I got way more information than I asked for.

I remember hearing that too heavy an oil was bad for the engine and so I have decided to return it and pick up some Rotella 30 weight detergent oil as that seems to be the favourite. Perhaps someone could chime in with a simple yes or no to my latest idea.

Yes I will also be doing all the appropriate compression testing and yes I am almost out of the gas which had the MMO/Sea Foam added to it.

So I am hoping to see a reduction in the faintly blue smoke I have been experiencing.

Was down at the boat yesterday and after turning the fuel supply on and operating the manual primer on my mechanical fuel pump, she fires up immediately and purrs like a kitten and sounds nice and quiet.

She likes to consume oil and has blow-by and I wonder if I might have a stuck exhaust valve. One litre of oil about every 16 hours of running but purrs like a kitten !

Thanks again - Gordon
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:52 PM
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My misunderstanding. I thought you already had 5/30 in the engine and it was temporary until the upcoming planned oil change. I did not intend to recommend a steady or prolonged diet of 5/30.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:11 PM
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Thanks for all the replies but.........

Thanks Neil,

Perhaps I was unclear in my original post so no apologies are necessary.

Now that Neil has posted again I am wondering IF it might be a good idea to keep the 5/30 wt. oil and use it to flush out all the crud that might have been loosened up by using the Sea Foam and MMO ? and then go with Rotella 0 / 30wt. as my permanent oil.

BTW Is there any harm in using the Rotella supplied for diesel engines or should I stick with regular Rotella?

I feel like a surgeon about to do a blood transfusion !

Sorry again for any confusion caused earlier.

Gordon
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:30 PM
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If I were advising it would be to follow Don's protocol to the letter and avoid freelancing. Extract the old oil with the engine fully warmed up (contaminates in solution, thinner to extract) through the 3/4" NPT pipe plug low on the manifold side with the biggest bore tube your extractor has.

Note that a 12 point 3/4" socket fits the square head of the pipe plug perfectly.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:14 PM
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Thank you Neil

Do you think I can use the 5/30 wt. oil to do a flush before adding the final 30wt oil choice per Don's advice. Which brand do you use ?

Always trusted your knowledge - never gone wrong !

A million thanks !

Gordon. Richmond, BC, Canada.
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrek View Post
Do you think I can use the 5/30 wt. oil to do a flush before adding the final 30wt oil choice per Don's advice. Which brand do you use ?
I wouldn't but if someone digs up such a flush recommendation from MMI I'll defer. Shell Rotella is very popular on the forum (research the forum for the preferred viscosity). As for me, I use NAPA house brand straight 30 wt detergent oil.

Your earlier transfusion metaphor is noted. Oil is the life blood of your precious engine so I would approach these decisions accordingly (the reason for my caution about freelancing). As an indication of how important oil can be I offer my daily driver truck. It is a 2004 Chevy Silverado Z71, 5.3 Vortec engine. I bought it new and have minded the oil changes religiously.

As of the first of this year it has 480,000 miles on the original engine that has never been opened up. It runs like a sewing machine with quiet, smooth power, average 130 miles daily. Yep, oil matters that much.
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Last edited by ndutton; 01-20-2020 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:49 AM
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FYI - I have a remote oil filter with an oil pressure adjustment located on the filter.
It is a bit trickier to get the pressure set than the original adjuster on the engine. I tried a few different oils and Rotella 15w40 seems to work the best. Once the engine warms up the oil pressure gauge seems like it is welded to 40 from idle to full throttle. When I was out two weekends ago I was glad to not have straight 30 weight oil, that would have made the engine harder to start for sure.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:56 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Shrek, I would stick with the heavier oils as that is what the clearances in the A-4 were designed for. The newer engines using the thinner synthetics, have much tighter tolerances for clearance and require the thinner oil to get into the friction areas and do the oiling.

As far as flushing your fine. If you are flushing out water a tablespoon or two of dish soap in the oil will absorb the water into an emulsion for easier removal. Speeds things up a bit.
For cleaning out accumulated gunk on old engines I have often used a mix of 60% plus of diesel fuel. It really breaks the stuff that has been sitting in the galleys. I usually did this before a teardown though. Just don't put any big loads on the engine.

Dave Neptune
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Old 01-22-2020, 11:01 PM
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My thinking is that oil packaged for a diesel has additives that are specific to the needs of a diesel. I would choose oil packaged for a gas engine. I wonder if the "high mileage" packaging is any different. I wonder about detergent.

As far as viscosity, I would think that multi viscosity or straight weight should be equivalent at operation temp for the same viscosity. I thought that was the way it was determined. They test the viscosity at operating temp....

Straight weight was recommended because there was no multi viscosity at the time.

The dual weights have a thinner viscosity for start up and the heavier for running at temp. I would think this would be ideal.

I use a multi viscosity but would be fine with a straight weight because I live in Florida. If I was sailing in the cold I would use a multi viscosity.
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Old 01-23-2020, 07:06 AM
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The problem with oil for gasoline engines is the additives and viscosity are *totally wrong* for an Atomic 4.
We do not have an engine made with tight tolerances that likes very thin oil like 0W20, 5W20, and so on that is often specified for modern cars. IMHO these oils are even a bit thin for a car, my car asks for 5W20 and the exact same engine internally in the turbo version specifies 5W30. I use the latter at a sacrifice of maybe half a MPG.
Speaking of MPG, corporate fortunes are not won or lost on eeking one more MPG from an A4 The anti-friction additives in modern car oil are not what you want with a wet clutch!
We also are lacking in catalytic converters. Zinc is good for old engines, but it will poison a cat. Taking zinc out is bad for our use. Our local shop sells a high zinc oil for old muscle cars with no emission controls, which I thought was perfect for an A4. Turns out not, it did not seem able to hold the set pressure well. I went back to Shell Rotella 15W40, which IMHO is one of the better oils you can use for an A4. We also no longer need to fear multigrade oils. I remember back in the day air cooled Porsche drivers and pilots both were highly suspicious of multiweight oil, it was assumed the wider the viscosity range the more likely the oil was to break down. That has not been true for quite some time except for Detroit Diesel engines, which for reasons I do not know absolutely do not want any multigrade oil anyplace near them.

* cautionary tale about new oil and old tech: Continental decided to spec Mobil 1 in one of their aircraft engines. It sure made cold starts easier, but in the end it was wrecking the engines because no one at Mobil had ever thought about engines with more blowby than any modern car that ran on leaded 100 octane gas. The oil was not able to deal with the lead. Remember when the A4 was designed, oil was almost straight out of an oil well with the lighter fractions boiled off and a handful of zinc thrown in

Last edited by joe_db; 01-23-2020 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
That has not been true for quite some time except for Detroit Diesel engines, which for reasons I do not know absolutely do not want any multigrade oil anyplace near them.
I wonder if this ties into the commonly held view amongst the oldtimers in our firehouse: "If you see oil leaking under a Detroit diesel (in the FH), you don't worry. If you DON'T see oil leaking, THAT'S when you worry."

Bill
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:52 PM
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My two cents based on owning a 1966 early model A4 for 44 seasons without needing a teardown or rebuild. [1] Picking up on Neil's comment on oil being the lifeblood of the engine [especially w/out a filter] I change oil for spring launch, mid season and fall /winter layup. [2] I use any quality name brand detergent oil that is on sale 10w -30 or straight 30w. The 10-30wt is 30wt at summer temps. [3] Engine sits at about 5 degree angle in the boat at the dock calling for 4 - 4 3/4 qts of oil. I use 4 qts oil and 1 pt STP which is very thick viscosity and loaded with zinc. It blends in to the oil raising the end viscosity to some unknown level.

The point that has not been mentioned is that the higher viscosity numbers wheather it be 30 or 40wt oil "adheres" more and longer to metal components during non running times. During the season hopefully I use the boat once during the week and twice on weekends. Sometimes due to weather/conditions it sits for a couple of weeks. Like to think startup wear is minimized with the thicker viscosity oil.
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Old 01-26-2020, 12:17 PM
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choosing the right oil

had a conversation with our marina shop parts clerk who is a retired chief engineer (unlimited) He told me exactly what sam has said regarding the film thickness of the heavier oils which clings to the parts after they have stopped moving. This protects the parts on the next start up. What I cannot get my brain around is how it does this in a multi viscosity oil which is, say 10 when it is cold (the oil is cold, not the weather) and only 30 or 40, when the oil is hot. Why does it coat with a film after the engine cools down? It seems from the earlier poll results that most prefer 30wt detergent oil and not multigrade, so which oil is the best for zinc. Is there a poll for the best brand for the A4?
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Old 01-26-2020, 06:57 PM
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All right - I am a long retired engineer who spent too much time in management so I appreciate the knowledge from "hands on" types. I am going to get a headache here trying to remember 50 yr old book learning.

- 5w-30 oil used in late spring/summer/early fall is 30wt oil. When the A4 gets to operating temp 140 F to 190F depending on your set up the oil [any oil[ will get somewhat thinner just from the higher temp. [compare changing your oil when engine is cold vs warmed up]. During the season the oil is never the 5wt The "w" in 5w means "winter" or cold. [don't know the benchmark temp]

- the "5" or the "30" represents how many seconds it takes for one oz of oil to go through a vicometer. The multi grades or straight oils is the result of varrying complex interactions between viscosity modifies and chemical solvents added to the base oil. The additives keep the multi grade oils from thinning out too much when warm. Straight 30 is more oil % and less modifiers and generally a slightly better lubricant.

- the old universal A4 manuals [engineers] call for SAE30 detergent oil. It is true back in the 60's multi grades weren't around but they could have spec'd straight 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc? What I assume they did do was consider oil psi [about 40], amount of oil flow through passageways, oil shearing capability at shut down ie "clingingness" [if that is word] especially on bearing journals, cylinders and volume of oil in the sump. The initial flow of oil at start up was based on the expected sailing climate temps- generally warmer months.

My bottom line from this trip down memory lane is I think you would be ok with your initial Costco oil purchase. In season or warmer climates SAE30 or a multi grade to 40wt I think is fine. There is a tradeoff between the chosen oil adhering to metal parts at start up [thicker is better] and how fast oil flows to the parts [thinner is better]. For an older good running A4 that has some wear probably using a multi grade up to 40 wt is a good bet. Just change it often.
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Old 01-26-2020, 10:25 PM
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Now it all makes sense

Thanks for this very enlightening information. So ambient temperature dictates the thickness of a multigade oil at startup. I am thinking about Rotella T4 15/40 or would 30 weight still be a safer choice given the fact we only have a crankshaft with 2 main bearings. I feel like I am asking a lot of questions but ever closer to a final decision thanks to our knowledgeable followers - thanks to all who have chimed in so far.
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Old 01-27-2020, 06:16 AM
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Both 30 weight and Rotella 15w40 have been used with success, so I wouldn't say either one was a bad choice.
Bad things oil can do:
1. Be too thin when hot. If you can't hold pressure when hot, your oil is getting too thin or your clearances have got too big for any oil to work.
2. Be too thick when cold. This makes the engine hard to start and makes the oil pressure too high when cold. This is hard on the oil pump and despite the high pressure reading, the oil may not be circulating well.
3. Be too slippery. Our engines have wet clutches. Too many anti-friction additives and they will slip. Motorcycles also have wet clutches and you will see a special line of Mobil 1 synthetic and Amsoil synthetics that are designed for wet clutches.

Neither 30 or 15w40 Rotella should have any of these issues in the summer, straight 30 might be a bit hard to start in winter.
* speaking of winter, when I start my engine I let it run at idle until the oil pressure settles down some.
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:14 AM
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MMI Manual: 30wt or 10-30 oil
Robert Hess: 10-30, 10-40 or 15-40 oil, SJ or CH-4 rating

Notice that neither mentions weights lower than 10.
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Old 01-31-2020, 02:33 PM
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Final decision on what oil to use.

Despite the thought that up to a 40wt oil should do no harm to my A4 I have decided to stick with the straight 30 wt oil regardless of the cost.
My engine is probably 1972 - same year as the boat (Columbia-30) so I need the assurance that both ends of the crankshaft remain lubricated. The trade off, I suppose is that the thicker oil might have gone some way towards less blow-by as it might have given a better seal at the piston rings.
A major motor repair would cost way more than many oil changes.

Also simple logic in reading the poll of the owners and its results, shows that the majority are using 30 wt with detergent and that is the basis of my decision.

Thanks all for this lively debate on oil - I am sure this gets revisited almost annually.

Regards - Gordon.
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Old 01-31-2020, 04:41 PM
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one last question - Sorry

As I have an oil filter on my A4 should I be using only non-detergent oil in the engine or does it matter either way?

I.e. If I use a HD High detergent oil, does this prematurely clog my inline filter ?
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