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  #26   IP: 174.195.218.31
Old 02-21-2020, 02:21 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Hi all, and thanks for your continued interest. We will solve this!!

I did take note of engine rotation and verified clockwise rotor spin. Ive tried the wires everywhere. It coughs a tiny bit on the NE tower. But that makes no sense at all to the timing. What about broken electronic ignition in such a way that its off? Seems unlikely. I imagine its go or no go. The magnet only goes in one way right? Im not sure of the mechanics of those parts. I know points and condensors...lol. 3 days on the road then im back to it and trying all your suggestions again. Is there a way to verify tdc with a volt meter on those things?
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:41 PM
jcwright jcwright is online now
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Regarding your question about checking timing, here is a section of MMI's installation instructions for 'Ignitor' electronic ignition kits. The second paragraph seems most relevant.

Hope this helps.

Jack.

-----

“INITIAL START-UP"

"If the distributor was not removed, or if it was reinstalled in the same orientation as it was before installation of the Ignitor, the engine should start and be very close to proper timing. It is recommended however, that the timing be fine tuned under power as described in the left column on page one."

"In the event that the timing was inadvertently disturbed during installation: (1) set the engine to number one top dead center, (2) reinsert distributor with the rotor pointing directly away from the block (late model), or toward the near corner of the oil filling lid (early models), and (3) use a 12 volt timing light across the positive and negative terminals of the coil to find the place where the ignitor opens the primary circuit - in the same way as when using points and condenser.”
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:07 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzydaze View Post
What about broken electronic ignition in such a way that its off? Seems unlikely. I imagine its go or no go. The magnet only goes in one way right? Im not sure of the mechanics of those parts.
In post #1 you said you verified spark at each plug. This would indicate the EI is working.
You also stated in another post the choke is closing all the way.
If all the information in this thread is correct there are only two reasons why the engine will not start:
The timing is incorrect or you have been no start cranking with the raw water valve open and as a result there is water in the cylinders.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:27 PM
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I still think we might be missing something on the timeline.
The engine ran.
It was shut down.
<SOME STUFF HAPPENED>
It won't run.
Can you tell us EXACTLY what "some stuff" is? Thanks!
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:48 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Heres is a more detailed timeline to the best of my recollection:
-Engine ran but had quit then restarted half hour later. (Led me to order coil). Noted a pin leak on water jacket cover.
-Removed side cover, ordered new gasket.
-Fought a stripped screw hole.
-Friend taps block and finishes side plate. Plug wires came off at some point. Put back on by ref to pics he took. He cant start it.
-Some time passes 2 weeks maybe.
-I go down to see plate job, engine doesn't run.
-I figure some crap in the carb and order carb gaskets. Remove clean and reinstall carbs.
-trouble shoot as discussed in this thread.

I have the through valve closed and believe I am of the standpipe variety. Also as I found out about this through valve thing I removed all the plugs and cranked it in case something had happened along the way, no water in cylinders.

Thanks for the EI info. Maybe on ei rotor position DOES matter for positioning of the magnet? Even though I think its on tdc right now..though its not pointing away from block??
Jazz
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Last edited by Jazzydaze; 02-21-2020 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Addition
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  #31   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-21-2020, 06:39 PM
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  1. As long as the rotor points to the plug wire of the cylinder that is at TDC it does not matter if it's 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, or 9:00 O'clock, North, South, East or West on the distributor. When a cylinder reaches TDC on its compression stroke it must get its spark. The magnetic electronic ignition ring is not a factor. We have a position convention on this forum but it has nothing to do with proper ignition timing so please don't be distracted by it. Once the engine is running properly we can help you reposition if you prefer but engine operation comes first.
  2. Once TDC is CONFIRMED (note: piston NOT at the top of the exhaust stroke) for cylinder #1 and the rotor is pointing to its distributor post, the firing order going clockwise around the distributor is 1, 2, 4, 3. You'd be amazed how many get this wrong.
  3. It is obvious in the picture that you do not have a standpipe exhaust system so please don't draw any conclusions thinking you do. It will lead you down the wrong path.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-21-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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  #32   IP: 174.195.218.31
Old 02-21-2020, 07:33 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Ahh good to know! I thought it was standpipe! Anyway the valve has been closed the whole time as far as I know. I did turnel it over with no plugs in it w no issues as far as water in the cylinders.

So the valve in #4 thats visible through the spark plug hole. Is it true that when it begins to lift #1 is tdc? Im working in this assumption so if its not true its a good place to retrace.
Wish I was at the boat.
Jazz
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  #33   IP: 174.195.218.31
Old 02-21-2020, 07:40 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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On a side note...wish you all were here pondering with me! On me for all your help.
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  #34   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-21-2020, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzydaze View Post
So the valve in #4 that's visible through the spark plug hole. Is it true that when it begins to lift #1 is tdc?
No.

No valves are open at TDC and no valves are open during the half turn of the crankshaft leading up to TDC. If you're watching valves through the spark plug hole as you turn the crankshaft (counter clockwise facing the flywheel) you must determine which valve you're watching, intake or exhaust. After the intake valve closes, the next time the piston reaches the top of the cylinder is TDC for that cylinder.

There's a much easier way though:
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...06&postcount=1
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-21-2020 at 07:59 PM.
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  #35   IP: 174.195.218.31
Old 02-21-2020, 09:00 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Doh...what I was understanding from my reading was that 1 and 4 operated together. One on an intake stroke the other on a exhaust. So 4 on exhaust would put 1 on compression...Anyway..compression testing kit will be home waiting for me. It should be a no brainer then. Watch the needle go up..done. right? Im doubting all my knowledge at this point..not that theres much...lol
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  #36   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-21-2020, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzydaze View Post
Doh...what I was understanding from my reading was that 1 and 4 operated together. One on an intake stroke the other on a exhaust. So 4 on exhaust would put 1 on compression.
Partially right, partially wrong (error highlighted). You are correct that the pistons in cylinders 1 and 4 move up and down together. However, when one is on the compression stroke, the other is on the exhaust stroke (same with power and intake strokes). For a timing exercise, the top of the compression stroke is all that matters.

Each time the piston moves up it is on a particular stroke but also each time it moves down:
  • Intake valve opens, piston moves down = intake stroke
  • Intake valve closes, piston moves up = compression stroke
  • Spark occurs at the top of the compression stroke
  • All valves closed, piston moves down = power stroke
  • Exhaust valve opens, piston moves up = exhaust stroke
  • Cycle repeats
We don't know if you even have a timing problem but this exercise will confirm you don't. I suggest sacrificing a spark plug, investing in a party balloon and stop peering down the spark plug hole to look at valves.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-21-2020 at 11:20 PM.
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  #37   IP: 174.216.13.133
Old 02-21-2020, 10:52 PM
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Mark Millbauer Mark Millbauer is offline
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Jazzy daze
Where are you and you’re boat located?
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  #38   IP: 174.195.218.31
Old 02-22-2020, 03:38 AM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Gig Harbor! Yeah..compression test kit on the way. No more peering in holes! It just has to be the timing. I just cant figure for the life of me how it went off.

Jazz
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  #39   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 02-22-2020, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzydaze View Post
It just has to be the timing
Careful there, no jumping to conclusions. We don't know anything yet. The ether and spark tests suggest it may be timing but nothing is confirmed. It will be soon though.

Please provide a picture of the top of the engine as it sits right now showing all four spark plugs, their wires and the distributor.
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Old 02-22-2020, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzydaze View Post
Heres is a more detailed timeline to the best of my recollection:
-Engine ran but had quit then restarted half hour later. (Led me to order coil). Noted a pin leak on water jacket cover.
-Removed side cover, ordered new gasket.
-Fought a stripped screw hole.
-Friend taps block and finishes side plate. Plug wires came off at some point. Put back on by ref to pics he took. He cant start it.
-Some time passes 2 weeks maybe.
-I go down to see plate job, engine doesn't run.

-I figure some crap in the carb and order carb gaskets. Remove clean and reinstall carbs.
-trouble shoot as discussed in this thread.

I have the through valve closed and believe I am of the standpipe variety. Also as I found out about this through valve thing I removed all the plugs and cranked it in case something had happened along the way, no water in cylinders.

Thanks for the EI info. Maybe on ei rotor position DOES matter for positioning of the magnet? Even though I think its on tdc right now..though its not pointing away from block??
Jazz
Likely suspect here! Seeing as how the plug wires are unrelated to the side plate, you might want to ask your buddy why exactly he took them off and what else he did.
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Old 02-22-2020, 10:09 AM
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Jazzy daze

I sent you a PM.

Let me know if I can help.
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Old 02-22-2020, 11:42 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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The switching of the points, the switching of the Pertronix and the switching of the Indigo ignitions all happen in the same reference for the distributor. These positions are fixed at the proper timing point of the distributor. The distributor is a separate part unto itself and must be placed "in time" with the compression stroke.
If the distributor has ever been removed it is likely that it is not set as it was at the factory for production purposes IE make the rotor point somewhere and make all the same for the speed of production. After the distributor has been removed it is likely that when replaced it is not pointing in the same direction as before while #1is at TDC. Wherever the rotor is pointing when the #1 is at TDC is where the #1 wire goes on the cap and the rest of the wires follow in the firing sequence and rotation order. There are as many ways to drop in the distributor as there are teeth on the drive gear and each one works just fine.
I think your entire sequence is off.
Confirm #1 TDC then start your plug wire wiring in order. She'll fire up and purr!

Dave Neptune
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  #43   IP: 174.196.193.133
Old 02-22-2020, 08:45 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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Thanks Dave. I totally get that. Wasnt sure if EI had a thing of its own. I cant wait to hear it go after all this! Atleast its a nice thorough thread for next guy...lol. I hope Im not bendimg all your ears to much. And I feel you all rooting for Ragamuffin

Jazz
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Old 02-23-2020, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Please provide a picture of the top of the engine as it sits right now showing all four spark plugs, their wires and the distributor.
I agree. Let's VERIFY you have the dizzy and wires correct.
That pic will help us help you verify.

Also, I have not read anything in the thread that confirms you have #1 at TDC yet.
Attached is a PROCEDURE for accomplishing that.
(Neil's "Spark-Plug-Party-Balloon" will make it even easier)

Finally, here is the procedure for your compression test:
COMPRESSION TEST PROCEDURE
Test the engine while its warm, as you'll get different readings hot and cold.
Your readings will be higher on a hot engine, but if it passes cold it will pass hot.

1. Make sure water intake is shut off so you don't fill exhaust system with water which will then enter the cylinders.
(You're not actually going to run the engine during the test so it won't need any cooling)
2. Remove spark plugs. Cover holes with a rag.
3. Remove coil wire, disable fuel pump if electric (remove fuse or disconnect wire)
4. Open throttle to wide open and leave it there.
5. Be sure choke is OPEN completely
6. Screw tester into spark plug hole #1 and crank engine with starter for a few seconds.
You will see the pressure on the gauge go up in steps and max out.
When it tops out, that's the reading. (about 3-5 sec)
7. Repeat on the other cylinders.

If the readings are low or vary more than about 10% from one cylinder to the next, add a tablespoon of motor oil through the spark plug hole of the low cylinder(s).
If this increases the pressure significantly, it indicates worn rings or valve guides (the oil acts to seal the gap somewhat).
If it doesn't change it's more likely a valve that's sticking or not closing all the way.
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File Type: pdf Finding Top Dead Center.pdf (9.7 KB, 13 views)
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Old 02-23-2020, 12:54 PM
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I agree, either an extreme timing issue or water intrusion.

Regarding that timing, when I first tried starting the A4 I rebuilt, nothing happened. Then I tried the ether down the carb trick, it sputtered and backfired. Upon investigation I found the distributor was a full 90 degrees off.

The moral of this story is that if the ether isn't doing a thing, no sputtering and no signs of fuel ignition whatsoever, your timing would have to be WAY off if this is the issue.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:41 PM
Jazzydaze Jazzydaze is offline
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/ef0vzrwxmo...51838.mp4?dl=0

Purring like a kittykat! Whooooot! So had TDC correct..compression is good. The dist was turned about 20 degrees off of the sweet spot. I for the life of me cannot understand how that happened and really wasnt looking for that.. I took distributor all apart AGAIN and noticed that the rotor was in the general vicinity of the #1 tower but wasnt right on. Loosened...turned it..win!!!

Thank you all so much for your help and encouragement. You taught me tons! Now you may resume mocking my mechanical abilities..hahah. Hopefully this saga helps another!


Jazz
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