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  #1   IP: 68.190.216.151
Old 11-06-2016, 08:11 PM
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Alternatives to Facet

Hi all
maybe is the gas I they sell in los Angeles, but I have had recurrent fuel supply problems and they tend to be the Facet. The sealing gasket on the bottom was all soft and puckered up, suggesting some solvent in the gas which the Facet gasket doesn't like. I buy my Facets from our hosts at Moyer, and have bought several.

The problem recently is the plastic ball-valve locks up with some kind of goop which I assume is precipitating out of the gas, because I've now got 3 fuels filters in line. An ancient Wilcox Crittenden bronze unit with a drain bung, a sierra cannister and a 10 micron polishing filter. I put the Wilcox Crittenden on because of the amount of crud in my old monel 50 gal tank. It turns out this was a smart move. Yesterday I found it had almost a tbsp of pale green dust in it - I take this to be a nickel salt from the tank. So I'm guessing its giving the Sierra cannister 5-10 times more life.

Paddling my 8 ton boat back to moorings with a couple of kayak paddles after being becalmed persuaded me it was time to take action. I shopped around and found an Airtex E8251 (suffix AX as I recall) Its marine, coast guard rated, 2-4 psi, 30 GPH, and a good deal cheaper than the Facet.

I spent my saturday on my knees on the bilge replumbing my fuel lines (again) and hooked up the airtex. Its whisper quiet. I'll report back on any issues, but I'm interested to know if anyone has experience with this pump. If it fails, I may fit a mechanical.
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Old 11-06-2016, 08:32 PM
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Uh...I agree..mechanical!!

I love mine..I see no reason to go with a Facet or other brand and add the OPSS, etc., and I've had no trouble with my rebuilt mechanical fuel pump. This seems like a 10 year or longer rebuild item..the only real point of failure as far as I can tell is the robust diaphragm.

I have no experience with the Airtex, so I hope you report back. Diversity and options always help!!
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Last edited by sastanley; 11-06-2016 at 09:10 PM. Reason: more blabbering
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  #3   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-06-2016, 08:50 PM
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Where are you getting your gas?
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Old 11-06-2016, 10:18 PM
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The weak point with the stock mechanical fuel pump is the inlet settling bowl and it's seal. The pump itself is fine. I've gone so far as to saw off the bowl, plug the hole, and get fuel into the pump by an alternate path - but I wasn't totally happy with the result. Tough choice..
I've been on boats which had a 'day tank' for fuel, located above the engine and gravity feed. In the morning, a hand pump would fill the day tank. Done deal.. Gotta love simple.
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Old 11-06-2016, 11:18 PM
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Unless the goop is FROM the Facet pump, you still have a problem. It may well precipitate out in the carb now.
Where do you get your gas?
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:26 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Has this been going on all summer? Or is it recent? Maybe there is something in the winter blend gasoline they sell this time of year in California that was not present in summer blend gas.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:17 AM
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Gosh, a tablespoon of that dust seems like a lot to get through those filters. I'm with joe_db...the problem is not really the pump, that just happens to be the current limiting factor. At best the problem will now manifest itself in the nooks and crannies of the carb.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:17 AM
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You wouldn't be one of those places that went to 15% ethanol ?
* the Facet pumps are, in theory, rated for 85% ethanol fuel. What I have seen is ethanol doing a fine job dissolving crud from the marina fuel tank and then it settles out someplace in your boat

Last edited by joe_db; 11-07-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 11-07-2016, 10:35 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Simon, there are many electric pumps that will work just fine like the mechanical stock pump. I think in your case that no matter what pump you install the KRAP in your tank will manifest as a problem. I feel your approach to the tank is like adding water to a mud puddle to make it go away.

Try a temporary tank for a while and I think your troubles with clogging will disappear.

For what it's worth I had a mechanical on my boat and in 34 years I rebuilt it once about 10 years after purchasing and it is still working for the new owner. My personal choice for safety is the mechanical stock pump, and don't forget it can be operated by hand with the bail. That bail pumping got me back to the slip so I could R&R the pump for rebuilding.

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Old 11-07-2016, 10:44 AM
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Some of us have engines with no way to mount a mechanical pump. Back when I had an older engine with a mechanical pump it worked fine.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:38 PM
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I have had no problems with my mechanical pump since the rebuild, 2400 hours ago. I like being able to use the bail to prime or flush the line. Electric fuel pumps are not to be considered an upgrade from mechanical ones, in my opinion. But they do tend to have easier access for replacement.
I use non-ethanol with MMO, with a stainless gas tank, a Racor filter and two inline filters. Even so, I have to clean the carb and replace filters more often than I would like. I am having one of those episodes at the moment, in fact.
If there is goop in the pump, it's not a pump problem but a gas problem. It may be that ethanol degrades rubber and plastic pump parts, but it is more likely that it breaks loose crud in your tank and sends it downstream to collect in the filters, the pump, and the carb. Or, your source of gas may be dubious to begin with. Fortunately for me, there is a good source of non-ethanol gas on this island.
I thought all A-4s have a way to mount a mechanical pump, if you remove the plate that was put on when the change was made to electric. Or perhaps there is a space issue on that side of the engine on some boats.
Winter vs summer blend gasoline? How Californian! Do you get that at the gasoline boutique?
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Old 11-07-2016, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
Winter vs summer blend gasoline? How Californian! Do you get that at the gasoline boutique?
Here is the lowdown on winter vs. summer blends we 'enjoy' locally:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ence-13747431/
Please notice it has NOTHING to do with ethanol content and all of us are using it without consequence.

As for the current issue, this is not a new wrinkle. It was the topic of a thread a year ago.

A comment from someone who has lived in Southern California his entire life:
50 years ago the smog was so bad we could not see the coastal mountain range maybe 30 miles distant (clearly visible today), our throats burned and chests hurt on summer days, schools would curtail outside activities on days with a high smog index. Emissions related measures, like them or not, have had a dramatic effect on our air quality over the long term so even if seasonal fuel blends seem nutty to non-locals, they've made a significant difference.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Where are you getting your gas?
arco usually
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Unless the goop is FROM the Facet pump, you still have a problem. It may well precipitate out in the carb now.
yuh, I know, having done two carb rebuilds - good thing its a simple unit
Some threads back I posted pics of what I called 'carburettor cheese' found inside the carb. But lately its been the Facet causing problems.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Has this been going on all summer? Or is it recent? Maybe there is something in the winter blend gasoline they sell this time of year in California that was not present in summer blend gas.

TRUE GRIT
wow - lots of replies to this thread!
winter? we don't have winter here
It seems to be year-round, and it clearly gets worse quickly if the engine sits for more than 2 weeks without running.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:42 PM
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Hi Dave

"no matter what pump you install the KRAP in your tank will manifest as a problem"

so you're saying that even though I have a really good chain of filters which must be pulling out all insoluable matter (grit, dust bigger than 10 micron), something is getting through. I agree. The question is - is it in the gas or in the tank or is the mix of ethanol gas additives (of unknown and unspecified nature) and monel making my problem.

"Try a temporary tank for a while and I think your troubles with clogging will disappear."

that would be a good way to test, no doubt.

"My personal choice for safety is the mechanical stock pump, and don't forget it can be operated by hand with the bail."

nice point. Also, I *assume* the pump rate varies with engine revs - something the electrics don't do (without some custom electronics).
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
Gosh, a tablespoon of that dust seems like a lot to get through those filters. I'm with joe_db...the problem is not really the pump, that just happens to be the current limiting factor. At best the problem will now manifest itself in the nooks and crannies of the carb.
clarification, the dust was caught in the first and most coarse filter. That's why I'm so pleased with it, antique that it is Hey, it matches the boat...and its owner.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:50 PM
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"I have to clean the carb and replace filters more often than I would like. I am having one of those episodes at the moment, in fact...."

commiserations. likewise. I've done more work on fuel line than any other part of engine

"If there is goop in the pump, it's not a pump problem but a gas problem. It may be that ethanol degrades rubber and plastic pump parts, but it is more likely that it breaks loose crud in your tank and sends it downstream to collect in the filters, the pump, and the carb. Or, your source of gas may be dubious to begin with."If there is goop in the pump, it's not a pump problem but a gas problem. It may be that ethanol degrades rubber and plastic pump parts, but it is more likely that it breaks loose crud in your tank and sends it downstream to collect in the filters, the pump, and the carb. Or, your source of gas may be dubious to begin with."

all are possible

"Fortunately for me, there is a good source of non-ethanol gas on this island."

not around here


"I thought all A-4s have a way to mount a mechanical pump, if you remove the plate that was put on when the change was made to electric. Or perhaps there is a space issue on that side of the engine on some boats."

I'll be looking into this if the Airtex fails
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
Winter vs summer blend gasoline? How Californian! Do you get that at the gasoline boutique?
lol! oh yes, on Rodeo Drive. But you have to dress right or the bouncers won't let you in
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post

A comment from someone who has lived in Southern California his entire life:
50 years ago the smog was so bad we could not see the coastal mountain range maybe 30 miles distant (clearly visible today), our throats burned and chests hurt on summer days, schools would curtail outside activities on days with a high smog index. Emissions related measures, like them or not, have had a dramatic effect on our air quality over the long term so even if seasonal fuel blends seem nutty to non-locals, they've made a significant difference.
I'm with you on that, Neil. Also, you and I - as denizens of the third biggest port - have noticed, new diesel regs on trucks, along with supplying shore power ot ship, has drastically reduced the fallout of greasy soot. I used to have to wash my deck and cockpit with soap, weekly. Not any more.
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Old 11-07-2016, 03:26 PM
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You're getting the cleanest fuel possible by using a high volume station and schlepping it to the boat rather than trusting the primordial goo at the fuel dock.

I wanted to withhold comment until you replied but now that we know I agree with the others that this is an on board problem and not likely a pump problem. My Facet cylindrical pump is 10 years old, has had a steady diet of E10 from high volume gas stations and I have never had a single fuel contamination, pump or carburetor problem. I rebuild my carburetor as a regular maintenance item bi-annually, replace my cartridge style fuel filter annually, no polishing filter.
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Old 11-07-2016, 03:48 PM
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Do you run the fuel out?
I have eliminated what used to be routine carb issues on the big boat and the dinghy by ALWAYS running the gas out when done for the day. I shut my fuel pump off and just let the engine run until it dies. I think it has been years now since a carb issue
Also note Seafoam is the cheapest gas additive and according to Practical Sailor the second best at preventing the whitish goop that results from ethanol interacting with aluminum. Biobor is best but costs way more. I always wondered where that crap in the carb came from despite 2 filters.
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Old 11-07-2016, 04:06 PM
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This is where it gets interesting - and inconsistent

I never run the fuel out of my carb, never have residue that I can see when I rebuild and also no problems. If there were a direct cause and effect wouldn't we expect universal symptoms??
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Old 11-07-2016, 04:19 PM
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It *most definitely* fixed my outboard issues. I went from unsticking the float valve about once a month to not once ever again.
I started the run-the-gas-out thing with the A4 to prevent gas odors from making the boat smell bad. The carb three carbs ago and two engines ago seemed to get smelly after about 12 hours. New engine and the new carb I got for it have never had an issue and never smell. I cannot swear they would have no problems if I quit my longstanding habit and I have never taken the "new" carb apart to see what is in there. The old old one was always needing white goo removal and cleaning. Maybe after X hours some coating wears off and they get bad inside
A friend's A4 carb needed goo removal and I told him to just get a new one instead of cleaning it all the time. He has had 0 problems since then
EDIT - The one time I took my Facet pump apart it looked new inside and this was after HUNDREDS of gallons of ethanol fuel. If ethanol dissolves their parts, it is not universal to all of them.

Last edited by joe_db; 11-07-2016 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 11-07-2016, 04:25 PM
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I'm not suggesting you or anyone change their habit, only trying to avoid declaring something a problem that might not be consistently so.

As always, I suspect there is a climate factor contributing to symptoms but in Simon's case he and I are in the exact same locale so any differences we may have cannot be due to climate or environment.
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