Electronic Ignition

[Dennis Mominee]

I installed an Indigo EI this last spring and have had no problems. The engine starts and runs great. The coil operates warm but not hot to the touch. The engine rarely operates for more than a half hour at a time.

[ndutton]

It was pointed out to me today that it's equally possible an internal overload device in the EI module may be tripping with excessive current (and resultant heat) and resetting after cool down. It would certainly fit our failure symptoms. Up to now I didn't even know such an overload existed in the module.

Since our testing and calculations were dealing with system current, this doesn't change our conclusion or remedy at all. It's the amperage we're managing. Whether or not an excess is affecting the coil, module or both doesn't matter all that much. The goal is to avoid excessive current.

[tenders]

Zero problems and zero maintenance with my Moyer EI in three years. I replaced the coil when I bought the EI kit since I was vague on the original one's provenance.

[roadnsky]

Ditto. Zero issues. Over 2 years running.
Pertronix EI with Flamethrower coil (engine mounted)
Both from MMI since 2009.
Starts and runs like a clock.
I also cleaned up ALL my wiring and have the 55A Alternator.

Neil-
Are the Flamethrower coils with 'issues' the exact same as the MMI catalog?
Is there a possibility they're different models?


Tenders-
Nice with the use of "provenance"! Some of us notice...

[ndutton]

Are the Flamethrower coils with 'issues' the exact same as the MMI catalog?
Is there a possibility they're different models?

I believe Don no longer offers the Flamethrower and while I'm sure there is a reason I'm not privy to it.

I've spent some time perusing the Pertronix catalog and don't remember any Flamethrower coils greater than 3 ohms. Don't quote me on that. What caught my attention was when considering alternator charging voltage and their own advisement to keep the system current below 4 amps, they didn't offer a coil that met their own specification while at the same time saying the Flamethrower was an "ideal match" for their Ignitor ignition system.

A lot of us bought into that, myself included. At the time it made perfect sense to me to match the coil and ignition from the same manufacturer. Subsequent failures, research and testing uncovered some contradictory information from the company however. I was not comfortable suggesting that we knew more than Pertronix about their product but the failures were undeniable and we tried contacting Pertronix for technical advice to no avail. Something had to be done so we were left to our own devices.

[roadnsky]

I believe Don no longer offers the Flamethrower and while I'm sure there is a reason I'm not privy to it.

Yep. Noticed that too.

[Dave Neptune]

What?

Neil, what is the "over-heat" safety switch??? And is that in the Pertronix?

This intire discussion has got me to thinkin ( not necessarily a good thing )and that is ~~ Could the engine box temp be a cause of excessive heat for those not running the blower full time? Just a thought. While looking at my engine the other day I took notice of my air into the box hose and it points toward the coil however the air flows over the end of the exhaust manifold at the hot section which is wrapped.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

Dave, my engine is in the middle of the boat (sorta..under the galley) and that area is open all the way to the main bulkhead under the seats & galley (basically the entire port side of the boat under the furniture) including under the quarter berth (where my nice cool gasoline tank is stored..it would take a while to heat soak a tank of fuel). I've run it with access doors off, blower on, blower off, everything closed up tight, everything wide open (no cushions, etc..) - it doesn't seem to be a factor, at least for me. I am sure there are many A-4's jammed into a tiny spot under the steps with almost zero ventilation (and a coil mounted on the engine) that keep on chugging...poor things.

Additionally, the times I've had failures have not been in the middle of summer around here. - In 2009, I ran it for over 16 hours at 2,000 RPM over a hot summer weekend with no trouble (old wiring).

This afternoon I am going to the boat to install my spare stock (13.8v) Motorola alt. and see if I can get her going for a bit in the slip while I do some other stuff..Speaking of wiring, I think it is time to re-examine my wiring schematic and make sure it matches the way the boat is actually wired.

edit - I wish that was the case...Man, I'd cut out the whole front end of the engine box out and install a 20" box fan plugged into an inverter if all it needed was a little cooling!

[ndutton]

Dave et al,

I don't know for certain about the existence of an overload device inside the module (haven't held one in my hand) but the information I received came from a reliable source. I have no reason to doubt it. It fits the symptoms too.

My experience with automatic resetting overloads is they use temperature to determine amperage levels. The trip temperature is usually quite high so as Shawn said I don't expect normal operating temps in the engine room would have an effect. If they did we would hear of failures far more frequently than we have.

The key though is to keep the current within spec regardless of whether it's the coil or EI module that is affected.

[thatch]

I'll take this one

Dave,
Several years ago after several shutdowns and a trip to the Pertronix factory, it was discovered that the trouble was caused by my solid core plug wires. I was also using their Flamethrower coil. It was explained to me that in the case of an overload that the module would reset after a cooldown period. This situation happened on a Chevy engine but it should hold true for the A4. The overload protection feature is not listed in my paperwork but it definately works. The one thing that will kill a module is accidentally reversing it's polarity.
Tom

[sastanley]

Oooooo..a new theory!~??!?!?!?

So...is the E.I. module maybe shutting down before total coil failure, allowing an engine to limp home in 15-20 minute chunks?

[thatch]

Could be

Shawn,
My guess is that's probably what's going on.
Tom

[Kelly]

Coil and EI

When I finally reproduced my engine shut down problem while still in the slip a few weeks ago, I was able to immediately swap in a different coil. Switching the wiring over took about two minutes and the engine subsequently started with no hesitation. No amount of cranking was producing any effect with the first coil still in place.

And just to be sure, I then stopped the engine, swapped coil #1 back into place and tried to start the A4. No dice.

For me, this was proof positive that the coil was the culprit.

[joe_db]

Around the time I got my Indigo system the boat was rewired and presumably the voltage at the coil got closer to 13.8-14.4, depending on the stage of battery charging going on. Also last night I checked one of my spare coils and it is 3.1 ohms. I wonder if a ballast resister of 1 ohm would have solved some of these issues back then?

[sastanley]

WARNING - Shawn blabbering-long post alert!

Kelly, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. And, I've had a similar experience. I guess I was trying to figure out from Tom's theory is if in some cases where if a particular boat's 12v system may be on the ragged edge of "too much voltage" that the E.I. may shut itself off, & the unintended consequence of that is a not totally fried coil...(provided it is not an underspec'd 1.5 ohm coil, as was in my most recent case.)

Since it has been spread out quite a bit over various threads & posts, here is my history over the last 30 months or so:

I ran the original 30 year old coil (early 2009) for several days in 45-60 minute chunks (when it would then shut off) while chasing what I thought was a fuel problem. On the 3rd day, some friends I was cruising with came over and helped me wire up a spare 3.0 ohm Pertronix coil & also do some more work on the fuel line (obviously unnecessary in hind sight.) Day 4 was a windless day, the damn thing ran for 45-50 minutes and WHAM...off...... Switched over the coil and she instantly fired and ran without a flaw for the rest of the week and the next two seasons...including some 8 - 9 hour runs, until I started some re-wiring in spring 2011. I think in my case I likely introduced less resistance into the system, upping the voltage in the ignition circuit, and hence breaking thru that 4 amp threshold we've been discussing. In this case, I was able to limp home in 15 minute chunks or so after letting everything cool off for 30 minutes. This setup was a 3 ohm Flamethrower with a Pertronix E.I.

An e-mail to Pertronix yielded the following suggestion, which lasted about 90 minutes of motoring:

This most recent episode of it failing and NOT restarting was a 1.5ohm coil and a 1.5 ohm resistor (Pertronix's recommendation...) coupled with the Pertronix E.I. - Neil & I have decided their tech department may not be reading their own technical documents, since clearly a 1.5 ohm resistor in front of a 1.5 ohm coil does not solve the problem of a 12v system at 14.1v with 3 ohms of total resistance...which clearly exceeds the 4 amp threshold.

So, last night I ran a 0.8 ohm resistor with my 3.0 ohm Flamethrower for 1h20m at the dock with no problem.. - For now, I've even switched back to the OEM Motorola 13.8v alternator..which further drops the voltage in the entire system. I know, I know, that is two things at once, but I also suspect that my other regulator has failed, but I needed to get the engine running again..there is more testing to do there to see if I can keep the engine running with the voltage I want in the system (14.1-14.2) and the proper resistance in front of a 3 ohm coil.

It will be interesting to see if I can get the motor to run with the 1.5 ohm coil again just for fun, but I doubt it. Another nice byproduct of running the engine while I do other stuff around the boat at the dock when it is cold is that the engine heats up the cabin very nicely!