No Start, is it a coil or distributor issue?

[Aaron B]

Hi everyone,

I have been battling my little A4 for a while now. Initially I suspected the root of my no start problem was a fuel issue, so I changed the filter, cleaned and rebuilt the carburetor, and tried again. No luck. I then moved onto replacing the head gasket which as it turned out, was shot. Now I have the head and manifold back on as per the MM maintenance manual guidelines, and still, no start. I tried turning her over a little while ago and it sounded like a much faster sound. I'm not sure how to describe it, but It sounded as if there was way to much energy being delivered. I have to admit, I'm not the toughest guy around when it comes to dealing with electrical stuff, so any advice would be appreciated. I have seen mentioning of testing the arc in various posts, but I'm not exactly sure how to do that.

Thanks in advance!

Aaron

[hanleyclifford]

One simple way to test for spark is to pull one plug wire, insert a screwdriver into the wire cap until it contacts the metal - usually you can get a small screwdriver to stick between the rubber and metal. Then hold the metal part of the screwdriver shank about 3/8" from the spark plug while turning the engine over. Be sure to close raw water intake while doing this. The spark should be able to jump this gap with a healthy audible snap.

[Aaron B]

Thanks Hanley, I will give that a try first thing tomorrow. Do you have any thoughts on the sound it makes, rather than the normal start up reving, it makes a higher sound that doesn't rev, it just stays at that level for the second or two I have the key turned.

Thanks!

Aaron

[hanleyclifford]

In another thread you mentioned you have an electric fuel pump. It is possible that you are hearing the sound of that pump. However, if this is the case it means that your electric fuel pump is not wired normally - unless you have the "deluxe" starting override to the "R" terminal on your starter solenoid. But let us deal with one thing at a time. Make sure that you in fact are getting fuel into the carb. Then perform the spark test. If you can do it, pictures of engines are beautiful on this site. BTW, if you do not already have one, go to the on line catalogue on this site and order your personal copy of the Moyer Marine Service and Overhaul Manual. That's how we all stay on the same page, as it were. Regards, Hanley

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by Aaron B

Thanks Hanley, I will give that a try first thing tomorrow. Do you have any thoughts on the sound it makes, rather than the normal start up reving, it makes a higher sound that doesn't rev, it just stays at that level for the second or two I have the key turned.

This sounds like your starter solenoid is not mechanically engaging the starter pinion gear with the flywheel, or the teeth are stripped, or the pinion gear's key is sheared.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Spark, Fuel, Compression

Spark: See Hanley's post
Fuel: You should see fuel pooling in the throat of the carburetor after cranking for a period of time in a no start condition.
Compression: You should not be able to seal a spark plug hole with your thumb while cranking.

Take on one system at a time.

You will need to solve your starter motor problem first.

Does it ever end?

TRUE GRIT

[lat 64]

Originally Posted by Aaron B

Do you have any thoughts on the sound it makes, rather than the normal start up reving, it makes a higher sound that doesn't rev, it just stays at that level for the second or two I have the key turned.

Thanks!

Aaron

I concur with Edwardc, It sounds(to me) like a stuck solenoid or maybe it's not wired correctly. Have the wires been off for the head repairs?

Get some one else to peek at the alternator belt while you try to start it. They will see it turning or not. This will tell you if the starter is engaged and turning the engine over.

After you fix the starter, we check for spark, If no spark then you can isolate the problem like a computer tech , test each component with control.

More later,
Russ

[Aaron B]

Thanks guys,

I will start with the solenoid as suggested, then go from there. Thanks for all of the insight! More to come...

[Aaron B]

I'm working with it right now, and the belt is turning. The sound is still a little off from what it should be though, it sounds to strong. I have not seen any fuel in the throat of the Carb, although I did last time around. I'll pull it and clean it, then onto the rest.

[Marian Claire]

AB: If you feel that the starter is OK I would take 5 minutes and check both spark and compression before starting with the fuel system. Both are easy and quick to do. When you do check the fuel system work thru it logically one step at a time starting with good fuel flow at the carb connection. Is the choke functioning properly after the carb removal? Dan S/V Marian Claire

[lat 64]

Super,
Now. The list is endles why the starter is turning faster(stronger?)

Top on the list is: You charged up the battery while you fixed the head.

next: oil got changed to lighter weight.
next: some krap from the head fixing got under the valve seats and is not letting them seal. This means lower compression and thus less resistance to cranking and it will spin faster faster. This would probably fix itself. hope, hope.
next: Some other problem is lowering the compression(relatively).
These could be stuck valves or thicker head gasket/s(two thick gaskets is good)
Some combination of these and a warm day can make a big difference.

So, you will need to do the compression test too along with the spark test.


Keep on keepin on,
Russ

[Aaron B]

Hey guys,

I tested compression today, using a gauge since I don't have an extra set of paws, and the needle didn't move a bit. I tried for spark, and didn't see one. Just to clarify, and I couldn't find it in the manual either, checking for spark is done by holding the plug from the coil next to the block, correct? Sorry, my terminology is limited.

Anyways, that is where she is.

[Marian Claire]

AB: I pull the #1 plug wire off the spark plug and test. Any # will work, # 1 is just the easiest for me to reach. That way you are testing the system all the way to the plug. If no spark then pull the wire off the center of the distributor and test it.Others have mentioned the method of using a small screw driver to bridge the space from the end of the wire to the block since the boot covers it.
I believe you should be getting some kind of movement/measurement with the compression gauge. Did you buy a new gauge? Did you test all 4 cylinders? Dan S/V Marian Claire

[lat 64]

If you don't have compression, then you might as well stop there until you get it fixed.
I still have that gut Feeling that the valves are stuck open, but lets confirm it.
Test your compression gage on a lawn mower engine or some other easy to access engine that you know runs well.
This will give you a little experience with the tool, so you know what to look for when you are working in the cramped boat.
There are finer points to compression testing, but right now you need to see something—anything on the gage before you move on.

You may already know this, but I'll say it. Be careful to not flood your engine with seawater while cranking the starter for a long time.

Russ

[JOHN COOKSON]

Aaron
Are you getting power to the coil? If you don't have a meter you can spark test to ground with a short piece of wire. If you have an electronic ignition disconnect it first. Don't leave the key on to long when the motor is not running or you will fry the coil/electronic ignition.

Do you have points or an electronic ignition?
Do you have an electric fuel pump and if so is it wired from the coil through the oil pressure safety switch?

The deal:
Get compression.
Then get power to the coil and I'll get you spark. Easy to do. All that's left is the coil and the points\electronic ignition and other stuff like the distributor cap, rotor, condenser, wires, plugs.

TRUE GRIT

[Aaron B]

Thanks for everyones patience! Here is an update: I have spark! That's good news. My coil is good, my distributor has had a little spring cleaning and is good to go. Now, I don't have any compression in any cylinder. Does that mean I need to open up the valves? I'm browsing the MM service manual right now and I can't seem to find what I think I'm looking for with the valves. Any thoughts?

[sastanley]

No compression in any cylinder indicates at least 4 of 8 valves are stuck (not only that, with two per cylinder, now you have 1 of a possible 4 and EACH one is stuck)....not likely, but not impossible. I didn't explain that very well, but with an exhaust and intake in each cylinder, it is unlikely that at least one in each cylinder (50%) is stuck.

Oh boy...we need a strong flashlight and a good eye to detect lack of movement of the valves that are partially visible thru the spark plug holes while turning over the starter.....or maybe the starter is bad and not engaging the flywheel...but you say you have spark, which needs things spinning to work.

I am still not convinced the starter is actually turning the engine over (ZERO compression in all FOUR cylinders).
Aaron..hang in there with us...I am leaning back to Ed's initial comment that your starter is not engaging the flywheel, and not turning the motor over...how you are getting spark is confusing to me.

The starter can be checked pretty easily...I choose to take mine to a local Mennonite shop which specializes in them...I am sure someone here can help you jump it on a workbench to test for proper functionality.

[hanleyclifford]

In an earlier post it was stated that the belt is turning. If that is so, then the rather unlikely case of a stuck valve in each cylinder looms as a possibility especially in light of the fact that we now have spark. Following earlier suggestions it seems that now is the time to remove all the spark plugs and shoot copious amounts of MM or ATF or some other thin detergent oil into all the cylinders. Then spin the engne. After a couple of 10 second spins, feel into the spark plug holes with the short end of an allen wrench and see if any valves can be made to snap down to their seat. Lay a towel over the open plug holes to catch the spurting oil.

[Aaron B]

I should have mentioned it before, but I did have a mechanic look at it, and all that is left was compression. For another visa and MasterCard I'm sure he could have fixed it. Anyways, I have the manifold off and the valves in plainview. Is it possible to post video here? I have a 10 sec or so clip of what's going on.

[hanleyclifford]

Pictures and videos are welcome here and very helpful. And having the manifold off will expedite the diagnosis.

[Aaron B]

I'll upload video tomorrow, apparently I can't from my phone. From FWD to AFT valves 1,4,5,8 are stuck. I'm trying the Allen wrench, how hard should I tap?

[hanleyclifford]

Best not to tap except as a last resort. Get lots of oil and/or WD 40 or other penetrant into the guides and let it soak overnight. Check for possible broken valve springs.

[Marian Claire]

1,4,5,8. I believe those are all exhaust valves. Zero compression is making sense. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[Mo]

Hi Aaron...I'd like to hear more history on that engine.

1. When was it last running.

2. Did you notice any problems in the past when running... noise, tapping, banging, knocking, any hesitation, lack of power, unusual smell,...anything at all.

3. If you can remember it all, steps and actions you have taken to get it running and gaps in time...ie, worked on it 2 months ago and now getting back at it. Step by step efforts so we know what has been tried and if there is something to add to the efforts you have made.

I would also get a exercise book and write down everything you have done so far. When you get suggestions to try things from the guys here write those in the book also. It will help keep you organized, help you bring the right tools, etc... then you can lay out a day plan. Keep the book in your car so you have it when you are home and at the boat....how does that sound to you??

[sastanley]

Aaron...the easiest way to do video is post it on youtube and then you can embed it right in your response here...there is a little You Tube button when you are composing a message.

Pictures can be uploaded natively, but there is a size limit..many of today's 12+ megapixel cameras will need to have their pictures resized first..I'd recommend something around the 1024x768 size...big enough to see good detail, but not so much to make the picture unruly.

edit - Wow...each exhaust valve apparently stuck! - Hanley's recommendations are good..I even went and got an oil can with a nozzle so I could direct the oil spray when doing "MMO treatments". MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) or ATF are good choices here...squirt some in the plug holes..and turn the motor over with the starter, and come back every other day or so and do that again until we get all the valves loosened up...banging on them is a last resort...if I couldn't break them loose with 'man power' on my allen wrench, I'd probably wait..rust is still a terrible glue...the oil treatments should eventually break it loose.