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  #26   IP: 99.233.122.71
Old 01-17-2013, 12:26 PM
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exhaust design responsible for water in oil?

Further to last post, here is photo of exhaust. It was rebuilt last spring when prior version leaked at spring launch. Tried to replicate prior design.

Could this be responsible for water in oil? According to Moyer manual (chapter 7), design misses by a few points:
1) Water discharge fitting in hot section is not 4 inches below highest point of hot section
2) No anti-siphon valve installed at top of water output hose

Water could have been in oil by a slow start in spring with raw water thru-hull open. But want to also makes sure exhaust design passes muster if that could be culprit.

BTW, I did "thumb" compression check last week and all cylinders passed. A4 ran fine at haul-out and winterizing.

thanks as usual for all wisdom


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  #27   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 01-17-2013, 01:32 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Question Info

Whippet, does your engine's manifold sit above or below the waterline?

Dave Neptune
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  #28   IP: 99.233.122.71
Old 01-17-2013, 02:06 PM
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Red face answer uncertain

Hi Dave

Thinking manifold is likely above waterline but perhaps not much.
I need a boat visit to confirm. Manifold close to bottom of cockpit floor (why i cant get a lot of rise out of hot section), and cockpit floor above waterline. i can inquire at C&C27 forum since away from boat for some weeks.

What is difference in your answer if manifold is or isnt above waterline?

Thanks for quick response.
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:29 PM
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Lightbulb There's more too

If it's above the water line no BIG worries. If it is below you will need to run the water injection hose well above the water line and install a syphon break as water will be sucked past the water pump to fill the exhaust then when the exhaust fills to the level of an open exhaust valve the dribblibng in via the syphon will reak havoc.

Dave Neptune
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Old 01-17-2013, 05:39 PM
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So as not to redo the water discharge section again, if you add in a union above it, that should give you 2'' more of piping above the hot water pipe. Unions come with female/male threaded ends.
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:15 PM
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water level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
If it's above the water line no BIG worries. If it is below you will need to run the water injection hose well above the water line and install a syphon break as water will be sucked past the water pump to fill the exhaust then when the exhaust fills to the level of an open exhaust valve the dribblibng in via the syphon will reak havoc.

Dave Neptune
Thanks Dave. Suppose i cant reallly confirm until May when C&C is back in Lake Ontario. In meantime, i will run on hard with intake hose in 5-gal bucket and see if oil still turns into milkshake. Here's a dumb question. Does it matter if bucket is high or low as possible?

I appreciate help
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  #32   IP: 96.229.18.9
Old 01-18-2013, 09:02 AM
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Lightbulb Perhaps

Whippet, if there is water in the oil it will take a few oil changes to get rid of it. You can run the hoses up to another spot and install the A/S valve and then back down to the exhaust. I had to do that in my boat. My engine is in the middle so I ran mine up behind a berth and up into a storage shelf to get well above the waterline. Even at that with my low freeboard the valve would often still stick so I went to a manually operated one now I need to remember to open and close as necessary.
Just stick the hose in a bucket, as long as you are close the pump will suck it in.
As far as your injection point lower would be a bit better, however I'm not sure a chnage is needed. Mine is not to much differant and I have no rise at all from the manifold.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:21 AM
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Don't get so focused on the exhaust as the source of water incursion that you overlook the many other possibilities. Dave's advice regarding the addition of an anti siphon valve (see last paragraph) is of course spot on and many of us would like greater rise in the dry exhaust section but yours isn't that different from many here. It's good to eliminate the exhaust system as a possibility but thus far it's not conclusive that's the cause.

So what are the other possibilities for water mixing with oil? A common one is water pump seals. Another is manifold breach (I don't remember, have you pressure tested the manifold?). Head gasket, block and head casting issues are also possible but let's not go there unless further testing directs us.

My exhaust doesn't have an anti siphon valve but rather an anti siphon loop. It is placed in the same water injection hose well above the waterline but at the top of the loop is a small hose Tee'd in that runs to the galley sink drain. With this design there is no valve to service or fail.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:06 AM
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C&C27 " Atomic 4 exhaust replacement" systems have been compiled by Windyday on the C&C27 Association website. The last loop just prior to the transom, is higher than the loop at the engine. I don't understand exactly why, but it shows up a number of times, and must work.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Don't get so focused on the exhaust as the source of water incursion that you overlook the many other possibilities...
I agree with Neil. I've been down this path before. I got so wrapped up in the exhaust that I neglected to do some simple things first to eliminate other causes.

One of these simple things is to pressure test the manifold and cooling jacket. This can be done together with the engine in place with minimum disassembly. If it holds pressure, you've eliminated a bunch of possibilities, and if it doesn't, you've eliminated the exhaust.

There's a detailed description of an easy way to pressure-test here:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=10
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:21 AM
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Thanks

Appreciate all the advice here. Sounds like best course from here is to wait for Toronto to rise above -8C, get the A4 fired up, and run the tests. More to come...

You guys are great.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:55 AM
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Thumbs up Many checks

Whippet, as Neil & Edward pointed out there are many possibilities. I did not travel down that path as you made no mention of any rough running prior to the incursion, perhaps I should of inquired. If it was indeed rough running before you saw the incursion that would be an indicator of it gioing through the cylinders while running. A quick compression check may detect the head gasket possibility and preassure checking the manifold in place is relatively easy. Sounds like you have the winter to deal with and time is on your side to do the checks.

Neil, I had the drain set up on mine however the 1/4 inch line did eventually plug up and that was in Cat Harbor a long time ago. Went to start and the starter just grunted. The engine was completely full and water was dripping out of the carb. I had been sitting for 3 days and less than an hour later I was motoring out of the bay. I also did not like hearing the constant gurgling while in the cockpit as that was where mine drained.

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Old 01-18-2013, 12:04 PM
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Excellent info Dave. I'll check that hose immediately.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:01 PM
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Runs normal and compression OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Whippet, as Neil & Edward pointed out there are many possibilities. I did not travel down that path as you made no mention of any rough running prior to the incursion, perhaps I should of inquired. If it was indeed rough running before you saw the incursion that would be an indicator of it gioing through the cylinders while running. A quick compression check may detect the head gasket possibility and preassure checking the manifold in place is relatively easy. Sounds like you have the winter to deal with and time is on your side to do the checks.

Dave Neptiune

Hi Dave:

A4 ran fine all summer right up to winterizing. Last week, i did the "thumb" compression check (after putting copious MMO in cylinders) and all 4 checked out. So still hoping it was just a few episodes of slow starting w raw water thru-valve open.

I do plan to do manifold compression test now that Mo has sent steps. All the queries about exhaust were intended as another winter project that could have contributed to water in oil.

Still trying to think through if anti-siphon valve is a worthy addition. Even if manifold above waterline, does it do any harm?

thanks again
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:08 PM
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That's the right approach re: anti siphon (loop or valve). There's no downside.
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  #41   IP: 50.197.27.245
Old 05-09-2013, 01:53 PM
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solved (i think)

To close thread on my water in oil experience. Got diagnosis help of friendly mechanic and he saw some leaking around water pump that i had missed. It was a late model Oberdorfer -- so i had thought these are less likely to be culprit -- but looks like i was wrong.

i replaced w new moyer pump, and after running 20 gals or so thru, i see no sign of water. true test is when hit water in few weeks, but i think i am clear for now.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
To close thread on my water in oil experience. Got diagnosis help of friendly mechanic and he saw some leaking around water pump that i had missed. It was a late model Oberdorfer -- so i had thought these are less likely to be culprit -- but looks like i was wrong.

i replaced w new moyer pump, and after running 20 gals or so thru, i see no sign of water. true test is when hit water in few weeks, but i think i am clear for now.
I'd say so as well...sounds good to go.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:55 AM
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Thumbs up Good for you Whippet

Hopefully not too many troubled nights sleep during the winter over this..
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:45 PM
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Unhappy Water in Oil: it's baaack

ah crud!

i had a "water in oil" episode in spring, but i thought it was fixed. appears not.

Replaced water pump in spring with new MMI on advice of mechanic who said that was source of water. First oil change a few hours into operation this year was clear of water. phew, i thought.

Just did winterize oil change today -- and the milkshake is back. i pulled dip stick before change. i'd say it was a bit above normal, but not much. so not like water is gushing in. i would have about 6-8 hours since last change (main use is just getting out of dock).

Engine ran fine this summer particularly after warm up. Oil pressure normal at 30-40. Compression checked out at about 100 in all cylinders in the spring. Redid exhaust in spring with water exhaust loop above waterline with a/s valve. and new MMI water pump as mentioned.

I tried to be careful not to do much cranking with raw water valve open.

So now what?

1) from prior posts, seems like manifold pressure test is most recommended?
2) Then progress to block? is there a test to isolate head from block? Likely head could be replaced on boat if that is culprit -- but block means big ordeal.

Hoping i just had on unlucky socks - and all will be fine next time -- but i doubt it. definition of bad day -- but i am reminded this is a "first world problem."

thanks for all advice as usual
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:55 PM
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During my water in the oil session recently, a well known Atomic 4 mechanic's first opinion was, " a burnt exhaust valve will just suck in the water".
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:41 PM
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Water pump seals.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:44 PM
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The first thing to do is pressure test the engine cooling system with manifold still attached. If it does not hold 20 psi, then proceed to remove manifold from engine and test it separately.
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Old 10-28-2013, 08:50 PM
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next steps

Did some more digging and found some advice from Don.

The 2nd one involving 1/4" steel plug is suspicious since my serial is 200,000 plus. Anyone else have this issue? how nasty is valve cover removal/replace?

I do plan to do the pressure test in (3)

Any other advice most welcome



1) (his first did involve water pump -- but mine is new MMI. so we have to assume water pump seals are off the list)

From Don:
2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed.

3) If no other cause can be found for water that continues to appear in your oil, we would have to suspect a crack in the lower part of the water jacket within the block. The easiest way to pressure test the block (without removing the head) is to first plug the outlet of the thermostat housing. Then remove the hose from the outlet of the water pump, and install a Schrader valve in the end of the hose, so that a standard bicycle tire pump with a built-in pressure gauge can be used for the test. A Schrader valve is the standard valve used on automobiles, and they are available at any auto parts store. The block should be able to hold 20 psi for an hour or more without a noticeable drop in pressure.
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Old 10-29-2013, 12:21 PM
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Whippet,

I would do another compression test, and then pressure test the block per Don's instructions.

One step at a time and we'll slowly and definitievely eliminate components until we find the culprit.
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Old 10-29-2013, 08:25 PM
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Steve,
a) Did you happen to keep the old water pump and rebuild it...if so you can try it. Replacement parts can fail, just not likely, but it can happen.

b) How does your exhaust look for keeping water out of the engine. Have you had any hard start issues.

c) What do the plugs look like. Any sign of water or really clean. Look with a light in combustion chamber as well and see if one or two look cleaner than the others....of course, 3 and 4 are typically dirtier than 1 and 2...worth a look though.

I saw one C&C 27 with a shut off valve in the exhaust right past the mainifold...like inches away. I seem to remember it being on the ejection line that goes from the manifold to the hot exhaust...someone had that there for a reason???
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Last edited by Mo; 10-29-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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