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Old 11-21-2016, 08:37 PM
Merino Merino is offline
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Catalina 30 Muffler

Ok... so I have a 1979 Catalina 30 with our beloved atomic 4... Unfortunately a leak developed in the exhaust manifold (confirmed during rebuild) which started the dreaded stuck valve syndrome which lead to one of the cylinders becoming frozen... So my atomic 4 is currently being rebuilt... Since the engine is out and I'm trying to optimize things while engine is out (lots of room to work). My original Catalina 30 muffler intake is damaged (crushed) and I intend to replace it... Started to look around and realized that most of the waterlift mufflers I've seen seem to be much smaller volume than my original (except the one offered by CatalinaDirect which is larger). So given that this is a Catalina 30 with the known exhaust issues (limited space, possible backflow when heeling), should I be concerned about the volume of the muffler?

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 11-22-2016, 09:08 AM
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Welcome Merino

Your question is a good one, waterlift volume is one of three important factors regarding Catalina 30 exhaust systems, the other two being the hot section design and the check valve at the highest point in the downstream exhaust hose found in the port sail bin in the cockpit. Since your question pertained to the waterlift we'll stay on topic.

The Catalina fiberglass waterlift is the highest volume, lowest profile model available. It has a liability though. Unless the construction has changed over the years the big flat sides tend to flex in use due to the rhythmic pressure developed when pushing out water batches. This flexing leads to cracks and leaks sooner or later, likely the reason they offer a replacement.

There are other waterlifts available in stock sizes that have been used successfully by Catalina 30 owners on this forum. In order of their quality starting with the lowest they are:
  • Vetus LP40 http://www.vetus.com/exhaust-systems...let-40-mm.html
    The Vetus LP40 will get the job done but it's blow molded construction is very light, its material extremely intolerant of elevated temperatures. Splitting at the center seam is the usual failure. It won't last 60 seconds without cooling water as in forgetting to open the raw water valve, blocked raw water intake or impeller failure.
  • Centek Vernalift 1500270 https://www.centekindustries.com/pro...-top-in-6-x-9/
    This is the waterlift I have. It is of filament wound fiberglass construction, very robust and corrosion free. In my sailing area burying the rail is a normal occurrence because of our excellent afternoon sailing conditions and I have had zero issues for the 12 years I've owned my Catalina 30.
  • Moyer Marine Stainless Waterlift http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...=EXHT_01.0_377
    You will not find a higher quality waterlift but of course quality comes at a price. It's dimensions are very close to the Centek I have and I cannot recall a single post on this forum describing any problems with it.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:14 AM
Merino Merino is offline
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Neil,
Thanks for the reply... I've been looking at the Centeks as well... However I was looking at this one in particular since it's about the same volume but lower profile...
http://www.centekindustries.com/wp-c...eet.pdf?x62515

Cheers,

Dan
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:33 AM
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I had not seen that model before, perhaps a new product within the past 12 years? It certainly meets the necessary parameters and has a slightly greater volume, like 9 fluid ounces. With it, a heat shielded hot section as high as cabinetry will allow and a functioning check valve you should be good.

Please keep in mind no prolonged no-start cranking with the raw water valve open. That will overwhelm any waterlift eventually.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:05 PM
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Hi Merino, and welcome to the forum. Just recently I replaced both my hot section and the entire hose run in my C-30. Like Neil I have the Centek 1500270 water-lift which is a "top in/top-out" unit. I have a feeling that trying to bend the hose onto the "side-out" fitting on the model (15R1163) might present a challenge since the natural run of the hose goes from the W/L up and behind the galley stove. The picture of the 15R does not seem to match the dimension drawing to the right.
Tom
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Old 11-22-2016, 06:31 PM
Merino Merino is offline
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Tom,
The drawing is a bit deceiving... part number 15R1163 is top in/out... Part number 15R2163 is side in top out...

Cheers,

Dan
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:11 PM
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Dan, Thank's for clearing that up.
Tom
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:12 PM
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Hi All,

Resurrecting this thread rather than starting a new one.

My '82 Catalina 30's stock, fiberglass water lift muffler (wlm) has sprung a leak (which will lead to a much longer, exhausting--pun-tended--thread later).

The question at the moment is suitability of the Moyer Stainless wlm versus either the Catalinadirect replacement or the Centek mentioned in ndutton's post above.

The stainless cannot have more volume than 198 cu inches and the Catalina is more than 4x that volume.

If I'm the only one starting the engine and I ALWAYS start it with the raw water intake closed, the volume shouldn't make a difference. BUT, if I FORGET or someone else starts the engine with it open, doesn't the lower volume of the stainless give me a much smaller margin of error for starting up?

Second question: Is there an appreciable volume (noise, this time) difference in the stainless versus the others?

Third and final question: Because the footprint is different, how many new holes will I need for the stainless? Part II: How appreciably different would the plumbing IN and OUT be versus the stock model?
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Old 11-13-2018, 10:37 PM
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rkohl, I can answer a couple of those questions.
#1- If your choke works reliably and closes all the way, the engine should start almost instantly, unless she's had a long lay up, in which case I would not trust anyone other than myself on that start up either, unless fully trained/qualified ahead of time. If I am out cruising and the engine has already been running, it almost always starts up right away anyway, unless it is dead cold and needs choke.

#2 - I have the Vetus, and even though it is lowest on Neil's quality gauge (I agree 100%, but it came with the boat and has not failed yet), I don't even have it screwed to the boat, because the exhaust hose is so damn stiff it holds everything in place.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
#2 - I have the Vetus, and even though it is lowest on Neil's quality gauge (I agree 100%, but it came with the boat and has not failed yet)
Sorry Shawn. I agree the Vetus waterlift functions as intended as long as the cooling system is functioning properly but on the other hand it quickly turns into a melted POS when things go wrong. That yours has served you well is a testament to the quality of your engine maintenance.

rkohl, by any chance is your leaky Catalina waterlift the large square version? Does it leak around the base seam (that's where they usually fail)? Consider that your Catalina waterlift has already failed once, do you really want to put another one in? Good to see you're thinking of other options.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:34 AM
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Neil: yes to both: large square version, leaking at the base seams.

I'm inclined to go either with the Centek you have or the MM stainless. Do you have any input on the volume questions I posed above? The MM one appears to be about 1/4 the volume as the Centek and I'm guessing would be even less forgiving if the raw water seacock were inadvertently left open.
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:48 AM
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I have no direct experience with the MMI stainless version but based on their business model I have no doubt as to it's quality. That said, stainless waterlifts in general tend to develop pinhole leaks at the base seam weld because of metallurgical changes with the welding process coupled with long term internal salt water exposure. I have never heard of such leaks on an MMI product however.

With the Catalina 30 specifically, waterlift volume is a significant factor due to limitations of engine placement and exhaust design. Bigger is better in our case.

Does your exhaust hose have a swing check valve at the high point inside the port cockpit sail locker? Is it functioning? Can you hear it clacking when the engine is running? The valve is usually a bronze check valve with a steel pivot pin . Some time ago I noticed the clacking noise on mine abated indicating no-function so I replaced the valve with an all stainless one. Again specific to the Catalina 30, it's an important component.

Autopsy of the old valve showed the gate was stuck open.

Quote:
The MM [waterlift] appears to be about 1/4 the volume as the Centek
You might want to check your math. Using the Centek model I have recommended before (1500270), it's volume is 28% greater than MMI's stainless waterlift according to published dimensions.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-15-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:42 PM
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oops...I meant the Catalina one (https://www.catalinadirect.com/image...5_S07_1178.jpg).

Hmm...will have to check on the valve you're talking about...I've never noticed it making noise before. This is looking to be a complete exhaust rebuild.
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Old 11-15-2018, 06:35 PM
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+1 what Neil said about the flapper. It is up under the winch. When the pin fails the bronze flapper gets lodged into the fitting so it doesn't clog farther down the line..but it is a NOTICEABLE clacker sound every few seconds if working correctly. I personally ripped mine out and replaced it with a Centek elbow. They seem to make quality parts, and I decided that if I was worried about backfilling the engine from the exhaust on stbd tack, I'll just stay at the dock that day, so YMMV.

Do a quick google search on "bronze swing check valve"...mine was 1 1/4" inch with male nipples on each end with the exhaust hose clamped on either side. I also suspect that you will find the exhaust hose failing at the muffler exit, and possibly at the transom thru-hull. Conveniently, two 10' lengths from WM with the flapper in the middle were adequate replacements..the hardest part was getting it around the ice box...I cut a screw in access plate behind the stove.
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Old 11-17-2018, 09:36 PM
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Neil, Shawn:

I assume that the pictures show where the non-mystical bronze swing check valve is located. As you can see, I have the mystical version installed.

Two questions:
1. What does the non-mystical version do?
2. How on earth am I supposed to cut that hose and put one in?

The hose is in decent condition, a little chewed up at the muffler end, but usable. I tested it for blockage, and it is clear all the way through.
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Old 11-17-2018, 11:00 PM
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It is entirely possible your boat never had the check valve. Earlier models did (both Shawn and I have 1977 models) and I understand Catalina dropped them in later model years because they were a constant failure point that caused excessive exhaust backpressure when they failed. Maybe if they used a higher quality valve the failures would not have occurred, the reason I replaced my failed original brass valve with steel flapper pin with an all 316 alloy stainless version. When mine finally quit it was stuck open so I did not have any debilitating symptoms.

What was the point?
For starters, let's accept that Catalina engineer Gerry Douglas knows his stuff. He's not infallible (see lower chainplate failures, plywood shoe in the keel stump, engine harness wiring plugs that dissolve over time) but with the incredible number of boats produced his successes far outnumber the klinkers.

I believe but cannot say for certain the intent of the exhaust check valve was to guard against flooding the waterlift muffler when sailing hard on stbd tack when the entire exhaust line can be below the waterline. Ideally an engine exhaust system is as close to the centerline of the boat as possible so heeling makes little change in the elevations but the Catalina 30's exhaust runs along the port side. This may not mean much to those who sail in light conditions but in my neck of the woods it does. A sail in a 20~25 knot blow may be an exhilarating ride that memories are made of but in Los Angeles outer harbor it might be called Tuesday. It blows like stink every afternoon so a rails under stbd tack is commonplace.

With the external flapper on my exhaust outlet I could probably have done away with the check valve but while I may pontificate on this forum excessively, I'm not about to think I know better than Gerry Douglas. Without good reasoning or experience otherwise, if he thought it was important that's good enough for me. It was installed on my boat from the factory and my engine has never had a water incursion in 41 years so it's my preference to maintain it as originally designed. Note again, that's in my case and sailing in my local conditions.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:40 PM
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So my boat falls into the "not factory installed" category. I'll decide later whether to put one in or not. I also discovered it does not have a raw water strainer. That, I will put in.

Yep, she ruptured alright. And I'm going to replace it with the Centek model Neil has.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:45 PM
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And it was going so well...

As you can see, the exhaust flange is in two pieces and one bolt is broken off. Other than soaking it in PB Blaster for a lot more time, tapping with the Steel Persuader, and applying heat, any other suggestions for getting the stubborn bolt and frozen half flange off?
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:33 PM
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rkohl, I know you don't want to hear this but what I did was buy the $$ exhaust manifold flange from Moyer, and then sourced local 1.25" NPT pipe to make a new riser. I actually have two sets..I have two Moyer manifold flanges and two Moyer mixers (down there by the hose clamps), so that I can take my time rebuilding the failed one while the working one is in the boat. My first one lasted about 7 years, and looked much like your failed one in that pic. Unfortunately, the rust is an awesome glue, and it is hard to get the broken parts off and the new parts on in a short period of time.

I have recently moved and do not have my archive file server running at the new house yet to provide pictures, but I basically made as tall of an upside down "U" as possible underneath the galley to give me a bit more leeway on the 'overcrank/water incursion' problem that sometimes happens in our C-30's.

That broken piece in the middle of your blue rag is the Moyer manifold piece you should probably call Ken to get replaced...you may very likely be able to clean up the "mixer" that is surrounded by hose clamps and re-use it.
P.S.> I also recommend making (or buying from MMI) stainless studs that attach the manifold flange to the manifold.
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Old 11-19-2018, 01:10 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Try standing the manifold upright so the PB blaster will migrate down along the threads by gravity as you tap on the bolt head.
No promise this will work but it should increase your odds of success.

Is there any way to get a bit more leverage by tapping on the remaining flange piece so the bolt is moved with it? I've done this before with a cleat I wanted to remove that was mounted on an aluminum spar that was held in place with two stainless screws. I cut section out of the middle of the cleat then tapped on the horns. The screws came loose pronto. No more cleat.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:14 AM
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If PB Blaster does not perform like you hope try a 50-50 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Testing has shown it to be more effective than any commercial concoction available.

Here is a reprint of a post from six years ago:

Quote:
Penetrating oils
A friend sent this to me the other day and I thought it worth sharing. I'm sure we all have a “scientifically rusted” environment somewhere on our boats.

Machinist’s Workshop Magazine™ recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a “scientifically rusted” environment.

*Penetrating oil .......... Break out torque*
None ........................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ............... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix...............53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix was a “home brew” mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the “home brew” was better than any commercial product in this one particular test and you can also use ATF- lacquer thinner 50 - 50 mix. Note also that “Liquid Wrench” is almost as good as “Kroil” for about 20% of the price.
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:05 PM
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I keep two squirt cans on my shelf. One is just 30W oil. The other is a 50/50 mix of ATF and kerosene. The latter works well for me as a penetrant, without the volatility of acetone.
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Old 11-21-2018, 08:24 PM
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I thought it was going to be a valve, but after getting the drain hose off, I think it's a vented loop. Either way, the drain hose is kinked and the anti-siphon hole is completely blocked. The drain hose simply ran to the bilge.

Can any sharp eyes tell me which this is?

The new one will follow Neil's suggestion for a vented loop. Can it simply drain to the bilge, or is it preferable to tap it in to the galley sink thru hull?

The stubborn 1/2 exhaust flange is soaking in penetrating oil for Thanksgiving weekend. Hopefully, that'll be enough time.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:04 PM
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You have a vented loop with a hose that's way too big. When it was kinked you had no vent at all and therefore no anti-siphon protection. There are a couple of ways to avoid the kink: 1)add two brass elbows so the hose connection points down or 2)get the proper size hose with reinforcing braided layers. I use heavy wall fuel grade hose and it does not kink.

About bilge or sink drain discharge, that's up to you but in my case I prefer a dry bilge so I would either connect the vent hose to the sink drain or replace the small hose connection on the loop with an anti-siphon valve and do away with the hose. As you've read I prefer a vented loop over an anti-siphon valve so I'm plumbed to the galley sink drain. Running my engine requires both the engine intake and sink drain thru-hulls to be opened.
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:21 AM
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If I plumb to the galley sink, does it matter where it connects (above waterline or below)?
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