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  #1   IP: 24.47.52.22
Old 06-03-2006, 05:34 PM
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Unhappy New Manifold Leak, Overheat

Don, I have a 1983 Catalina 30 with Remanufactured FWC A-4.

During our annual cruise last summer, the black iron hex reducer holding the elbow on the aft end of the manifold gave out halfway between Watch hill and Block island. I spent the better part of a week replacing the manifold, and entire exhaust pipe assembly. It was like a scavenger hunt, trying to find what i needed in dusty garages and harware stores. When reinstalling the manifold, i felt the aft stud give a little, but hoped beyond hope that it was tight enough and it would work. I also replaced the elbow with a larger one that did not need a hex reducer.

The motor never quite ran well after that under load and i attributed it to a dirty carb since i let it flop around when it was disconnected from the manifold. It also seemed to run hotter than it had in the past. We limped home and made it through the season, laid it up for winter and lo and behold, winter did not heal the problems.

Well i just commissioned the boat yesterday, full dissassembled and cleaned the carb, replaced cap, rotor and plugs and she started with the first crank. There was a little more blue smoke than i liked, but thought that any sticky parts just needed to get loosened up for the season.

Under load, the same problem still happened, except now it is apparent that the stud was not tight enough and i am getting exhaust gases in the engine room, reducing the available oxygen, causing rough running. Hope fully no blow by directly from exhaust to intake. The cabin smoked up quite a bit and it ran smoother with the engine room covers open.

I accepted this and throttled back to make it to the dock. After 30 minutes, i again decided to see if the manifold had magically healed itself and went back to high throttle. It seemed better, until the engine just cut out. The temp was pegged at 240 and i assumed high temp cutoff switch was the reason for the shutdown. I waited about 30 minutes and could not restart even after the temp had fallen below 160F. I know i had fuel becuase i jumped the pump to feed the carb before cranking. I also hotwire it so i can be right at the engine when cranking.

So now for my questions:

Stud replacement: The studs are original and i chased the threads with a bottoming tap before i put them back and i installed them with neverseeze, not permatex, but i strongly suspect the threads in the block pulled out. What now? I see your replacement kit in the catalog, is that what it is for? Do you drill it larger and then tap it again?

Manifold gasket: If i just fix the stud, is it likely that the manifold gasket is good enough to simply tighten it back down?

Overheat: I have read everything available on overheat as this has been my constant bugaboo since the motor was installed. This overheat is the worst i have ever had, the first time it shut down due to high temp. It usually runs at about 200-210 if i push it under load. I have good flow from the exhaust and the fresh water flow into the heat exchanger feels vigorous (mixing valve long since removed). I check it by sticking my finger inside the HX just upon start to feel the flow. The bypass hose is plugged with a metal plug with a ~1/8" hole drilled in it. Is the manifold issue a likely contributor to the excessive overheat?

Not restarting: I assume that the ignition is cut off upon overheat by an overheat cutoff switch. I see two devices, one on the block and one on the HX. I assume that one is the temp sender and one is the cutoff switch. Shouldn't it start working again once it cools?

Thanks,

Paul
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  #2   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 06-04-2006, 09:14 AM
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Paul,

First, the easy part: There is normally no high temperature cut-off on the Atomic 4. If someone installed such an aftermarket device, there should be a leg of the primary ignition circuit running through the device you're seeing on the inlet to your heat exchanger; however, I consider this to be unlikely.

The defective stud: I would replace the defective stud with one of our 7/16" repair studs before taking any other remedial action. While I don't believe your faulty stud and your overheating situations are related, the defective stud appears to be causing an exhaust leak, and if not corrected, it will eventually allow antifreeze to leak into the exhaust manifold and/or into the adjacent intake port and into the combustion chamber. I'm attaching a pdf file of the instructions which will come with the repair stud so you can prepare yourself for that process. You may be able to reuse the manifold gasket, but there's no way to know until you remove it.

Be sure to only torque the manifold studs to 25 foot-pounds, not 35 foot-pounds as specified in original Universal manuals. Also, you should definitely use a good sealer on the threads of all studs and not Never-Seize.

Overheat condition: A good flow of engine coolant through the fresh water side of the exchanger, along with a good flow of sea water out of the exhaust, confirms two of the three elements of a well functioning cooling system. The remaining issue is how much of the engine coolant is actually passing through the "T" fitting and on into the block and the head. Even though you have a restriction in the by-pass loop, it appears that there is a restriction somewhere the engine block and head (perhaps in the "T" fitting or thermostat) that is over-powering the restriction in the by-pass loop.

I'm also suspicious of the device you believe to be a high temperature shut-off switch. If you can't reconcile its purpose, it's probably better to remove it.

Not restarting: See attached pdf file for non-starting engines.

Regards,

Don
Attached Images
File Type: pdf 716 repair stud.pdf (79.0 KB, 1174 views)
File Type: pdf Non-starting checklist.pdf (11.6 KB, 1131 views)
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  #3   IP: 12.105.244.130
Old 06-06-2006, 03:23 AM
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Don,

The engine was purchased from Old Lyme, with their fresh water cooling kit. I see a sensor or switch of some sort on the HX. There is also another sensor or switch mounted in the block, near the themostat housing. I always assumed that since there were two "temp sensors", one was a cutoff switch and one was the sender for the temp gauge. I guess i will have to use a multimeter to discern what is going on.

If i understand correctly, i should fully remove the manifold, inspect and perhaps replace the gasket, drill and tap the bad stud hole and put the whole thing back together. This is a wrestling match i was trying to avoid. I have such a short section of hose between the pipe and the water lift that it is a real pain to do this. I was hoping, based on the description that i could drill though the manifiold, tap it and reinstall without manifold removal. Wishful thinking.

If the bypass is plugged and i feel flow, doesn't that mean that it is flowing through the head? I completely removed the thermostat last year and that did not help. I tested the stat by placing in boiling water and it open readily, so i put it back.

Thanks,

Paul
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  #4   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 06-07-2006, 08:25 AM
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Paul,

You can install one of our 7/16" repair studs through the manifold, just as you can through the head. The only difference is that the manifold is somewhat thicker than the head, so the standard hardware store 7/16" tap may not extend through the manifold far enough to tap into the block.

If this is your situation, it would be a relatively simple matter to take your tap into a local machine shop and have them tack weld an extension on to the tap. This would probably be easier than removing the manifold from what you're reporting about your access issues.

With respect to your overheating problem, it's difficult to predict the outcome of your investigation of the bypass loop and thermostat until you go through with the investigation. It's difficult for me to understand how you can have a good flow of sea water as well as a good flow of engine coolant through the exchanger (with a totally blocked by-pass loop) and still be experiencing overheating above 200 degrees.

Don
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  #5   IP: 24.47.52.22
Old 06-11-2006, 10:00 PM
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Progress

Well, i spent the afternood today wrestling with the manifold. Wasn't too bad. I was able to get it apart and back together in about 3 hours with my 4 & 6 year old sons "helping".

I had to pull it off since i could not get the tap extended and i was glad i did since the gasket was kind of messed up. I tapped the aft hole and installed the replacement stud with the kit from Moyer. The kit should include a tap holder (as opposed to a tap handle), which is hard to find, but it makes life much easier. It is a piece of hex stock that has a hole in it that fits the tap. Then you can use a ratchet wrench on the tap. I used an adjustable wrench and it worked just fine. I sure am glad i read the instructions carefully and did not drill out the block with the provided drill. That would have been a big oops. Just tap the hole, no drilling required, unless you want to go through the manifold, the drill is for the manifold, not the block!

The directions for the JB Weld say not to stress it for 15 hours, so i did not have an opportunity to go further with trouble shooting.

I did look at the impellers, and they look good. The o ring on my Moyer Marine speed plate grew and now i cant get it to go back. Couldn't find the extra that came with it either. I'll have to order a replacement and get to step two next week.

Question: I have now traced all the hoses. The fresh water loop leaves the manifold, goes all the way to the water heater and then back to the heat exchanger, where it enters the top "in" fitting. The water heater is a Seaward, 6 gallon model. I have tried to find info on them, but no luck yet. I am starting to wonder if the water heater has a thermostat to keep from overheating the water. This might explain good flow at start (when i can keep my finger in the HX), but i have no idea how the flow is when it is hot. Does anyone know anything about Seaward water heaters?

Thanks,

Paul
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  #6   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 06-12-2006, 07:42 AM
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Paul,

We had two Seaward hot water heaters on different boats, and to be best of my knowledge, neither of them had any controls in the raw water side.

Thanks for your comments regarding an extension for the tap when installing a 7/16" repair stud through a manifold. I'll look into such an extension, which would make the installation kits as friendly to manifold installations as installations through a head.

Don
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  #7   IP: 24.47.52.22
Old 06-14-2006, 09:09 PM
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Don,

I did not see the o-ring for the speed plate in the online catalog. Do you sell a package of these?

Also, what material is it? I was surprised to see that it had grown given that during the material selection you would assume direct contact with antifreeze.

I am sort of hoping that it may have shrunken back down to size with a week in air.

The tap holder that I am familiar with is not to extend the tap, but make it easier to line up and use a ratchet wrench to turn the tap, which would be great in most sailboat engine spaces. It is simply a nut (~3/4") with a hole to accept the tap with a square hole in the back. You then use a 3/4" socket and ratchet to turn the tap.

Thanks,

Paul
C-30, 3058
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  #8   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 06-15-2006, 05:17 AM
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Paul,

The replacement o-rings have a product number of CSOB_10.1_213 in our online catalog. Just search on "213" (without the quotes).

We have no reports to this point of the o-rings expanding in the presence of petroleum products or antifreeze. A few of our earliest pumps had o-rings that were slightly larger in terms of OD and my guess is that you may have one of those o-rings.

Don
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Old 06-24-2006, 06:56 PM
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Don,

I am moving ahead. As posted in my separate ignition thread, i got the motor running today, so now i can say that 2 out of 3 problems seem to be solved. The manifold gasket steamed a little in the beginning, but settled down. I torqued it again after running and i am feeling good about the manifold job.

I haven't run it under load yet, but i imagine the overheat issues will still be with me. I did a fresh water flush of the block, confirmed that the bypass hose is plugged. I also flushed the raw water loop backwards from the injection elbow hose, all the way back to the pump. No restrictions, not too much junk. The i flushed the fresh water loop, through the manifold and all the way to the pump inlet. Again, lots of flow and no junk.

When i ran the engine to fill with antifreeze, i kept my finger in the HX to feel the flow of the antifreeze. It flows in, but maybe not as strong as might be necessary. The impeller looked good when i inspected it 3 weeks ago. Water flow from the exhaust is good.

I have an Oberdorfer 202M-03 as the fresh water pump and i was wondering if the full cam to upgrade it to the 202M-07 would help. The specs say it will pump twice as much water as the -03, so i figure this can't hurt. The Oberdorfer data sheet clearly identifies the -03 as the right pump for the A-4, though so i don't want to do anything that will cause other issues.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul
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  #10   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 06-25-2006, 04:20 PM
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Paul,

I don't believe that any overheating problem you may have remaining after all your work on the cooling system will be caused by, or remediated by, converting from a 202M-03 to a 202M-07 pump.

Don
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Old 06-25-2006, 10:10 PM
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Don,

If the problems continue, i am really to the point of grasping at straws, looking for any incremental improvement.

I figure, it can't hurt, but the question really is, Can it? Can the PTO handle the increased demand that the -07 requires?

Thanks,

Paul
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  #12   IP: 38.118.52.63
Old 06-26-2006, 07:58 AM
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Paul,

I would estimate that by this time approximately 80 percent of the Atomic 4
fleet has converted to M7 series pumps. I really don't know why Universal
considered the M3 as their OEM pump, other than perhaps the M7 wasn't
available in the late 1960's. In any case, I can't think of a single
downside to converting to an M7 cam shoe.

Don
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