Forward Detente Issues

[Banyan Day]

HELP! We were beginning to slip out of forward under full power, so I decided to adjust forward mode ..... in the process I've discovered that no matter which way I turn the adjusting collar, I can't get the Pressure Plate fingers to move all the way into the Groove in the Operating Cone. As per the manual proceedure, I have removed the ships cable from the Shifting Lever, and made sure is wasn't something to do with the range in the cable movement. Could the yolk be limited in its movement by some reverse adjustment? I'm putting down the tools until I find some advice-Thanks in advance! Will

[Don Moyer]

Will,

My first guess is that you probably accidentally turned the adjusting collar too far in the clockwise direction, to the point that you can't get the operating cone to move rearward far enough for the ends of the fingers to find the groove.

I would start by turning the collar a couple notches in the counterclockwise direction (as you would face the engine from the rear) as you move the shifting lever forward. You should see the operating cone move a bit further to the rear with each adjustment. Remember that as you get closer, one notch makes a big difference.

Regards,

Don

[Banyan Day]

OK! - I tried turning back the adjustment, but the fingers still won't drop into the detente. Any other suggestions? Here's what I've checked so far: The movement of the shift lever is clear, and the range is not being limited by the ship cable in any way. I've adjusted the collar gradually to extremes in both directions; when I turn it clockwise it eventually tightens up and limits the movement of the lever in forward (I've applied some pressure, but don't want to damage anything). I've also checked to make sure that the pressure plates are all in their correct positions (all the tabs on the plates are in the grooves in the drum like they're supposed to be). Like you said, the gooved collar just doesn't seem to be able to move back on the shaft far enough to detente. While underway, the operation of the gears is normal- except that it continues to slip out of forward under load. Is there any other adjutment of the fork/throwout? Is the range of movement between forward and reverse totally independant, or will fiddling with the reverse adjustment possibly help? And Don, How much time do you spend at the 'puter everyday handing out free tech advice- and how do you do it?! A thousand Thanks!!! Will

[Don Moyer]

Banyan,

The only cases we have on record (2 in 15 years) where the reverse adjustment has ever affected the forward clutch assembly was when someone tightened the reverse brake band adjusting bolt so tightly that it not only eliminated the neutral zone, but prevented the forward linkage from pulling the operating cone all the way out of the forward engagement. Although the operating cone was moved far enough to be out of the forward detent in these cases, the forward clutch disks were still sufficiently engaged to have the reversing gear essentially in both forward and reverse at the same time. This does not seem to be your situation.

If the shifting yoke has broken free from the cross shaft, you wouldn't be able to engage reverse, and if the fingers that extend downward from the shifting yoke are broken, you should be able to see that quite clearly as you observe the operation of the yoke while moving the shifting lever fore and aft.

Short of discovering something amiss with the shifting yoke where it connects to the operating cone (and at risk of frustrating you even further), my instinct is that you're still missing something in the positioning of the adjusting cone.

Don

[Banyan Day]

Thanks Don for your reply- I'll take a closer look.... The adjustment is good for reverse and "The Neutral Zone", and I even have a good solid forward engagement - but the fingers are riding right on that lip of the cone and won't drop into the detente with substantial pressure (How much pressure is safe to apply here with the engine stopped?) Hence it slips out of gear. Back to the engine room!
Will

[Banyan Day]

Well, I worked with it most of the day and still can't figure it out. (I also read through all the related posts in case I missed anything.) Tried every which kind of adjusting to the collar to no avail. Even adjusted slowly moving one notch at a time. With the collar loose, tight, and everywhere inbetween, when I move the lever forward the fingers move to the same position on the cone - right to the highest part on the lip before the groove! On the "loose end" of the adjustment, It feels that the maximum mechanical movement of the shifting lever/cross shaft/yoke in forward is reached before the cone can fully engage the fingers. I assume this is normal. On the "tight end" it only gets there faster and even a lot of force won't move the cone forward enough to get the fingers to drop in the groove. It feels like if I REALLY leaned on it, it may move forward and crush the pressure plates or snap the cable, etc. I initially thought that something was misaligned in the drum that wouldn't allow the fingers to spread properly - but there is nothing visibly out of whack (besides ME, of course). All parts are in their place and there is nothing rattling around. Clearly when the collar is too tight the movement is limited by the compression of the disks. But, in loosey, what limits the forward movement mechanically - is it the throwout forks against the rear of the iron case?

Besides slipping out of gear, the thing works great, forward and reverse, no strange noises or vibration which leads me to believe that when I do figure this out - it's gonna be something really dumb! (Fingers crossed!)

Will

[Jim Booth]

I had trouble adjusting mine until Don sent the following instructions. This worked well for me. It's really the same info he keeps posting, but this version "clicked" better for me. The weight lifter part and disconnecting the cable first helped me a lot. I'm just barely strong enough to get it to click into the detent by working the shift lever at the reversing gear. (Wimpy desk job guy ) I made an emergency lever that will extend the shift lever if needed, like if the shift cable were to break. After adjusting it per this procedure it would slip at full throttle so I tightened it one more notch. All is well since then in forward.

Jim Booth

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Achieving a proper adjustment of your reversing gear is not a balancing act between the internal adjustments of the reversing gear and the boat's cable system, but a step-wise process as follows:

IMPORTANT NOTE: Since the condition of your boat's cable system appears to be somehow confusing the internal adjustments of your reversing gear, I suggest that you disconnect the cable at the shifting lever on the engine and make the following adjustments by working the shifting lever on the engine.

1) Adjust the forward clutch assembly so that when locked in the forward detent, it will not slip at your highest power settings, but at the same time, not be needlessly tight (to where it takes a weightlifter to place the shifting lever in and out of forward). It's convenient to be in the water when making this adjustment, so that you can check for slippage by pulling on the dock lines.

2) Without ever touching the forward adjusting collar again, adjust the reverse brake band adjusting nut so that you have a comfortable neutral range between forward and the place where you begin to engage reverse. Since you have a shifting lever on the side of your cockpit, you should have plenty of travel to achieve a comfortably wide neutral zone, and still be able to reach reverse before running out of cable travel.

3) Place the reversing gear into the forward detent, still using the shifting lever on the engine.

4) Place the large turnbuckle over the engine shifting lever and align the holes in the turnbuckle and shifting lever, while someone moves the shifting lever in the cockpit to the forward limit of its travel. The hole in the turnbuckle should only move a short distance beyond the hole in the shifting lever (approximately 1/2"). If there is too much cable travel beyond the point where the forward detent is reached, you may run out of cable travel when engaging reverse. Adjust the large turnbuckle on the end of the cable as necessary to achieve the above relationship between the cable and the shifting lever on the engine.

Best regards,

Don Moyer

[Don Moyer]

Will,

It looks like you're very close.

In some cases, the notches on the adjusting collar on all but the very latest engines are so far apart that one notch will allow the clutch assembly to slip at high power settings, and the next notch (tighter) will take two arms and a leg to get the assembly to drop into the detent. You can see the two adjusting collars compared in our online catalog in the description of product number OREV_05_306.

If this turns out to be your case, I would discourage the use of any of the newer low friction oils (like synthetic oil) in the crankcase, or additives like Slick 50 etc. I would even discourage the use of Marvel Mystery Oil in the crankcase (but keep using it in the fuel).

Don

[Don Moyer]

Will,

Very interesting! By the way you've done a great job in explaining your problem, and I have no trouble envisioning your situation. I only have one question, and then a long shot to offer. First, the question:

There is a ridge (or you might call it a flange) machined into the front of the operating cone, just forward of the detent grove. Are you saying that the operating cone hits a restraint of some kind as it moves in a rearward direction, approximately 1/2" or so before the ends of the fingers reach the ridge at the end of the cone (which would be 3/8" or so before they reach the detent groove)? The second part of the same question is what does the restriction feel like - is a sharp metallic "clunk" as if it's hitting something, or does it appear to "tighten up" more slowly as if it's wedging between something?

Now the long shot: If the answer to the above question is "Yes", the last time I remember this issue occurring was when someone installed one of our exchange engines and the bottom of the shifting lever came in contact with something below the aft end of the engine.

NOTE: We always install a new full length shifting lever on all our exchange engines. In this way, the lever will accommodate any configuration that may exist on any particular boat in terms of cable connection. In some boats (like the Catalina 30) the bottom of the lever needs to be cut off because there is insufficient space below the engine for the lower part of the original lever.

I know that you've already removed the cable from the shifting lever, but is there any possibility that something slipped under the back of your engine that is contacting the lower part of the lever?

If, as you once seemed to imply at one point in a previous posting, the groove in the operating cone does end up under the ends of the three fingers, then I have no idea why they wouldn't drop into the groove (and stay in) other than that the groove has worn to the point that it's too shallow to retain the ends of the fingers, no matter how tightly the adjusting collar is set. This would be a first ever situation, but as the
old folks always said: "There's always a first time for everything".

As a last resort, I'd go back to the time the shifting mechanism worked OK and focus with laser beam intensity on what may have changed between that moment and the first time you noticed this perplexing problem. Focus also on the month or so before the problem. If the detent groove really has worn to the point that it simply won't hang on the ends of the fingers, I would think that it would have been a slow transition with assembly slipping out of the detent every month or so and gradually getting worse until it simply won't hold at all. My understanding from your previous postings is that the
problem began all at once.

Good luck, and we're all are holding our breath to see how this dilemma resolves.

Don

[Banyan Day]

I spent the night on the boat with the access cover removed meditating on the problem and the advice I've accumulated (yep, that's the way we do things up here in northern Calif.). I was struck by Jims comment that he really needed to apply leverage to get into the detent.... and I'm one of those pencil-pusher types too.... so I resolved to try again in the morning. After checking the adjustment one last time, I positioned myself low in front of the engine, got a good grip on the lever and pulled as hard as I could. (And I REALLY pulled! )*KER-POP* It went in! Then I really had to work to get it back out of the detent using a cheater pipe on the lever. Funny thing is, after that first time everything moved easier and after moving in and out of gear a few times, the movement is smooth and feels just right. With a couple turns off the reverse adjustment I had good forward detent, neutral zone, and reverse. Eureka!
I guess now the question is: Was there something making the movement unusually difficult (corrosion?) or am I just a wimp? Truthfully, In the two years I owned the boat, I'm inclined to wonder if the detent was ever engaged....
THANKS Don (and Jim!) for helping me through another one - much appreciated.

Will
Newport MkII "Banyan Day"

[Jim Booth]

It's tough being a wimp ! I've also discovered that it goes into the detent much easier when the motor is running. So, luckily, you don't need to apply as much force with the normal shift lever. I did get my Chinese clone Morse shift control to work - I think reliably - by clamping pieces tighter and adding two screws that tie the clamp to the tube. You can search for my other postings to read about that saga. Anyway, I instructed the other captains to never shift in or out of forward unless the motor is running. You may think that wouldn't happen, but sometimes we forget to put it in neutral as the last step before shutting down.

I'm glad it's working for you now.

Jim

[Don Moyer]

Jim,

You make a very interesting point, and one that invites a closer look. Hopefully we'll get some feedback from others regarding the differences they feel when engaging the forward detent while the engine is running and not running.

At first glance, it would appear that since the bearing on the aft end of the operating cone allows the cone to rotate in sync with the three latching fingers, the latching assembly wouldn't really know whether the engine was running or not during engagement.

However, we know that it doesn't take much of a change to make a big difference in the feel of the detent, so it's probably the case that when the disks are at rest in a cold engine, the film of cold oil between each pair of disks adds up to a measurable thickness, resulting in a stiffer feel as the detent is engaged. When the engine is running (particularly after it's at normal operating temperature) the oil is warm and creates a thinner film between the disks, thereby resulting in somewhat less resistance during engagement of the detent.

NOTE: While the engine is running, there is a continuous flow of oil being supplied to the center of the gear cage assembly from the pressurized oil system of the engine. In the last few seconds of running in neutral just before shutdown, this oil is being flung out between the relaxed disks of the forward clutch assembly by centrifugal force, where most of it will stay as the engine cools.

When setting the forward adjusting collar on a cold engine, we frequently encounter the situation where one particular notch feels a bit too loose, while the next notch seems needlessly tight. The importance of your observation is that it's probably best to err on the side of the tighter setting, anticipating that when the engine is running and at a normal operating temperature, shifting into forward will be at least a little less of a struggle.

Don

[Jim Booth]

I would also like to know if others have the same experience with shifting force being lower with it running. I didn't think about the mechanical structure and so on, but I figured the bit of vibration that occurs when running would overcome the initial friction (I remember this as "stiction" from my college physics days). Whenever you try to move one thing against another, the initial (static) friction is greater than the moving friction. But it could just be the way the mechanism is built. As I type, my sons and their friends are almost back from a cruise to Chicago, for the past couple hours using our now-dependable A4 (thanks to Don and Moyer Marine). They report doing 5.4 knots with a steady 145 water temp in our Columbia 8.7 with Indigo prop.

Jim

[Banyan Day]

I find the shifting into forward a little smoother (...Now!) only after some warmup time. I'm thinking more oil splashed over the moving parts, viscosity, etc. But, it could mostly be in my imagination as the change in feel is not great. I'm a believer in the Stiction principle. I have noticed an increase in power which makes me smile
Cheers, Will