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  #1   IP: 73.178.188.222
Old 10-07-2018, 04:17 PM
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Here's the plan...

Hey all, long time no post.

I've been plagued all summer with niggling little problems on the engine.

She's late model and raw water cooled, got electronic ignition, electric fuel pump, and 95-100 psi compression. I pitched a belt in August on the way out of the South River and the engine died. When I say die, I mean like the ignition was turned off. The wind was favorable so I just sailed on figuring I'd worry about the engine later. A little later, the wind went away and I had to shift my attention to the engine and couldn't figure out why she wouldn't start after I got the spare belt installed. I was becalmed off of Herring Bay with some traffic chop making work below uncomfortable, so I packed it in and exercised my TowBoat insurance.

The next day, I found the primary ignition wire that the broken belt cut and replaced it. While I was at it, I disconnected and cleaned/replaced all terminations in the engine compartment, just because. I verified I had good spark at the plugs and buttoned her up

After I put everything away, I went to the controls and started her up. She cranked maybe two revolutions and fired right up! I was ecstatic and thought the job was done...then she died. I fired her right back up and figured it was normal cold-bloodedness.

Well, for the life of me, I couldn't get her to run for more than 30 seconds no matter what. What was confusing me was that I didn't have these issues before the pitched belt.

Fast forward through some fuel troubleshooting (I had already looked at the ignition earlier) to ensure good flow from the tank to the carb and a filter and Racor changeout, the engine would start and run indefinitely at idle. But, as soon as I came off idle, the engine died.

I thought maybe I had a big a$$ed rust flake intermittently clogging the exhaust, so I leaned over the manifold to remove the hot section for a look see. That's when I leaned too hard on the exhaust manifold raw water outlet nipple and snapped it off (There was no obstruction,BTW). I've tried to get the remainder of the nipple out of the manifold but with clearance restraints in the engine compartment, I've been unsuccessful.

I've gone from swapping out for a new A4, to a beta, to electric, back to a new A4 in my frustrated head. Now, I'm thinking that I will pull the engine out into the cabin for some Restoration work.

remove head and manifold
acid dip head and manifold.
valve inspection/adjustment/job as necessary
carb rebuild
open up water jacket cover and check for excessive corrosion build-up
replace rear engine seal(leaks slightly)
clean up engine compartment
put it all back together and hope that the next step isn't necessary.

Thoughts?
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Last edited by rickinnj; 10-07-2018 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
Hey all, long time no post.

I've been plagued all summer with niggling little problems on the engine.

She's late model and raw water cooled, got electronic ignition, electric fuel pump, and 95-100 psi compression. I pitched a belt in August on the way out of the South River and the engine died. When I say die, I mean like the ignition was turned off. The wind was favorable so I just sailed on figuring I'd worry about the engine later. A little later, the wind went away and I had to shift my attention to the engine and couldn't figure out why she wouldn't start after I got the spare belt installed. I was becalmed off of Herring Bay with some traffic chop making work below uncomfortable, so I packed it in and exercised my TowBoat insurance.

The next day, I found the primary ignition wire that the broken belt cut and replaced it. While I was at it, I disconnected and cleaned/replaced all terminations in the engine compartment, just because. I verified I had good spark at the plugs and buttoned her up

After I put everything away, I went to the controls and started her up. She cranked maybe two revolutions and fired right up! I was ecstatic and thought the job was done...then she died. I fired her right back up and figured it was normal cold-bloodedness.

Well, for the life of me, I couldn't get her to run for more than 30 seconds no matter what. What was confusing me was that I didn't have these issues before the pitched belt.

Fast forward through some fuel troubleshooting (I had already looked at the ignition earlier) to ensure good flow from the tank to the carb and a filter and Racor changeout, the engine would start and run indefinitely at idle. But, as soon as I came off idle, the engine died.

I thought maybe I had a big a$$ed rust flake intermittently clogging the exhaust, so I leaned over the manifold to remove the hot section for a look see. That's when I leaned too hard on the exhaust manifold raw water outlet nipple and snapped it off (There was no obstruction,BTW). I've tried to get the remainder of the nipple out of the manifold but with clearance restraints in the engine compartment, I've been unsuccessful.

I've gone from swapping out for a new A4, to a beta, to electric, back to a new A4 in my frustrated head. Now, I'm thinking that I will pull the engine out into the cabin for some Restoration work.

remove head and manifold
acid dip head and manifold.
valve inspection/adjustment/job as necessary
carb rebuild
open up water jacket cover and check for excessive corrosion build-up
replace rear engine seal(leaks slightly)
clean up engine compartment
put it all back together and hope that the next step isn't necessary.

Thoughts?
I am pretty sure the 30 is like the 35 where the engine comes out easily, so you have that going for you. I think I can have mine out in under 60 minutes
Tons of things are much easier to work with at home, so this could be a fun winter project.
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:04 PM
sdemore sdemore is offline
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The C&C 30 isn't bad, but you almost have to pull the cabinets apart to remove/reinstall the engine. I didn't have any cabinets in the boat when I got it last year, so installation and adjustment was a breeze.
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Old 10-07-2018, 07:18 PM
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I'm gonna hafta do some partial disassembly. I think I can lift slightly to clear the mounting bolts and then slide her into the people box. We don't have motor mounts.

To complicate things, I'm pulling the mast for a step rebuild.
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Old 10-07-2018, 10:27 PM
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I'm pulling my mast in a month or two to rebuild the step, rewire/light the mast, replace blocks, and put steps on the mast.
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
I'm gonna hafta do some partial disassembly. I think I can lift slightly to clear the mounting bolts and then slide her into the people box. We don't have motor mounts.

To complicate things, I'm pulling the mast for a step rebuild.
Do the engine first, you need the mast in place or you'll need a yard crane.
Did my step back in 1998 or so.
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Old 10-31-2018, 12:54 PM
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here's the plan, continued

I've removed the carb and manifold. Next I concentrated on the head. I hit each nut with PB Blaster, gave each one a rap or two with a ball peen and let 'em sit. An hour later I gave each one a couple turns, then back a half turn and repeated the blaster-rap treatment. Four or five cycles later, only three studs came out and the rest of the nuts came off. Nothing broken.

I still don't have the head off.

I had the mast pulled due to logistical restraints. I'll have to get creative to get the block into the cabin.
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Old 10-31-2018, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickinnj View Post
I've removed the carb and manifold. Next I concentrated on the head. I hit each nut with PB Blaster, gave each one a rap or two with a ball peen and let 'em sit. An hour later I gave each one a couple turns, then back a half turn and repeated the blaster-rap treatment. Four or five cycles later, only three studs came out and the rest of the nuts came off. Nothing broken.

I still don't have the head off.

I had the mast pulled due to logistical restraints. I'll have to get creative to get the block into the cabin.
Don't take the head off! You need it to lift/move the engine. Take off the starter and alternator.
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Old 10-31-2018, 02:54 PM
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Right. I go back Saturday for the day. At that point I'm gonna clean up the head studs, and reinstall the nuts.

When the boat is on the hard, I'll work on getting the engine out of the engine bay.

Although all I wanna do is get the valves squared away and clean out the cooling passages in the block, both of which I could do with the engine in situ, I need to get that engine bay mucked out. It stinks of oil and exhaust all the time. Additionally, if you look at the photo, you'll see my mount stringer coming apart...figure I'd better do an extent of condition and subsequent repair.

[IMG]/Users/richardbushie/Pictures/Photos Library.photoslibrary/resources/proxies/derivatives/00/00/e2/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_e2.jpg[/IMG]

ugh...picture won't come out as a picture! I didn't want you to see my crappy engine anyway!
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Old 10-31-2018, 03:51 PM
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Speaking of removing your atomic 4 from your boat, has anyone with furniture or steps in the way of easy engine removal ever heard of cutting out the cockpit floor and making the cockpit floor removable and somehow water tight. If this was done i think you could get the motor out straight through the cockpit floor so one would have easy access to the motor and be able to remove quite easily without disassembling half your galley. I have a friend who has a cal 29 that had this done. He purchased the boat this way so he's unsure of its engine removal abilities.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:17 PM
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Don't overthink it TOO much. Get the starter off, flywheel off, and alternator off. Back in my younger days two of us would then just pick it up and carry it around. (Might explain why my back hurts now )
You can make a tripod frame that rests against the toerail and provides a lift point. You can use tires, old fenders, PVC pipes, etc. etc. to make a surface to pull it forward on. We got an A4 down a steep set of stairs strapped onto a waterski.
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Old 10-31-2018, 04:46 PM
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The engine is right under the bridge deck on the C&C 30. That'd suck to cut out. I'm thinking I can put a 4x4 across the top of the companionway to get her up off of the mounts and then slide her out on a 2x8.
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:21 PM
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I'm thinking I can put a 4x4 across the top of the companionway to get her up off of the mounts and then slide her out on a 2x8.
I did this on my boat - it was pretty easy to do. Make sure you lay some oil proof stuff on the cabin sole first or you will have a nasty mess to clean up afterwards.

Peter
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:46 PM
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The "mounts" on mine are two large pieces of angle aluminum. They go across the top of the angled boards and down the outside. They are bolted through the boards from the sides. Each of them is drilled and tapped for bolts through the engine "feet," two small metal plates.

Getting the engine in and out involves removing the 8 bolts, attaching a winch from the boom (supported by a halyard at the same point), taking most of the weight off the feet, and sliding the engine out.

Once out and into the cabin, I had a frame of 4x4s (2 high) that I set it on to keep the oil pan off the floor.

You can see the mounts here, on my homemade rolling engine stand.

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Old 10-31-2018, 11:16 PM
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For those who don't want to do the boom method for engine removal here is another way to consider. With my Ranger 29 I could do this from beginning to end in an hour. I would first lighten the A4 by removing the starter and alternator, loosen the mounts then slide about a 4 ft. piece of 2 x 6 under the front of the engine to be used as a pry. Then I placed a saw horse over the hatch opening and fastened one end of a come-along to the saw horse and the other end attached to the A4. Then you stand on the end of the 2 x 6 to lift the engine up off the mounts and just crank the engine out and into the cabin. In the Ranger it worked so slick.

Once it was in the cabin area two of us could lift it out and on to the dock and into a wheelbarow. Re-installing was the reverse. Ya, I was younger then
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Old 10-31-2018, 11:30 PM
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Hi Rick,

I'm in the Catalina 30 camp so I can't offer much insight into your C&C specificities. Also, I'm a relative newbie here in the middle of a full rebuild myself so I can't offer nearly as much advice as the experts who comb the forum to help us lost souls seemingly on a daily basis. However, I do feel I'm qualified to offer some advice as it relates to your powerplant choice soul-searching.

Like you, I faced an engine with significant reliability issues that, for me, ultimately required a full rebuild. I seriously questioned whether it was worthwhile to expend any further effort on an A-4 or switch to diesel or electric. As a testament to this group, I noticed nobody chimed in on your thread with some silly absolution like "diesels are dumb! Atomic 4-life!" or "electric is for hippies!" however that seems to be a frequent occurrence on other forums. I'll say this; for my vintage/model/market value of boat, (1979 Catalina 30) usage pattern, (infrequent) endurance/range needs, (limited to motoring out of the marina and raising the sails) and most of all budget (around $2,000-'ish') diesel was a no-go and I was leaning toward electric.

I watched hours of YouTube videos, joined the Yahoo electric boat forum, researched different motor options, learned about basic electric motor theory, weighed the benefits of permanent magnet DC vs induction AC, watched more YouTube videos, started collecting used lithium batteries from discarded power tools, watched more YouTube videos, read the biography of Nikola Tesla (not kidding) consulted Elon Musk (kidding) , watched more YouTube videos, and then ran the numbers. I could've purchased a 48 volt DC motor kit for about the same price as rebuilding my A-4, but thats before batteries. I'm sure if you've done even cursory research into an electric conversion you've discovered that lithium batteries are the only realistic option to achieve any range whatsoever and they aren't cheap. I even looked at purchasing a battery module from a wrecked Tesla model S or Roadster on eBay since they're widely available. I quickly realized it would be very difficult if not impossible to get the cost even with rebuilding my A-4.

I hope you don't mistake this as me trying to dissuade you from pursuing an electric or diesel conversion if that's what makes sense for your application. At the end of the day, as much as some would deny it, electric and diesel both have specific advantages over an A-4. Electric would be quiet, reliable, less maintenance etc. And if I were taking the boat around the world? Sure, give me a diesel for lower fuel consumption, less moving parts, and maximum range. However if cost is a primary consideration, I came to the conclusion even a relatively expensive (as I define "expensive") Moyer short-block engine would be a cheaper way to repower than an electric or diesel conversion.

Keep us posted,
-Jonathan
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:53 PM
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Launch,

I may rant and rave, but I'd never really consider ditching my A4. The real choice was whether to spring for a new rebuilt from Don for the easy way out or to pull some long overdue RR&R on my existing mill.

The crazy talk was partially fueled by Boat Show Derangement Syndrome. All those shiny bits and wild ideas were fresh in my head.

But when my mind cleared, I recognized that the finest engine in the world won't overcome the five wires on the positive coil post, or the trailer plug in the wiring harness, or the filthy gas tank that needs steam cleaning, or the oil and soot saturated engine compartment.

The engine is mostly being removed from the engine compartment to allow me to clean/paint said compartment. While it's out, I'd be a fool not to do the valves and clean out the cooling passages. After that a little engine de-grease/rust and a paint job will make her feel better about herself.

Thanx for the pep talk! My feet are firmly on the ground here.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:10 PM
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Peter,

I'm thinking about a plywood platform over the dinette area to work on the engine. Spanned across the two benches it'll be out of the way and containable. I'll put herculite on the sole to contain any mess on the way.
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:52 AM
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can we add "BSDS" to the popup lexicon here?

Boat Show Derangement Syndrome - nice one!
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:57 AM
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BSDS.

Done, Greg!

Bill
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:01 AM
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BSDS.

Done, Greg!

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Old 11-02-2018, 09:11 AM
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BSDS
  • First time at a boat show, sail only, SCMA Long Beach auditorium, went on every boat in the place. Cool.
  • Second boat show a year later, same event, skipped all the gleaming boats, hit the equipment booths hard.
  • Third boat show, straight from the entry door to the bank financing booths.
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:05 AM
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While it's out, I'd be a fool not to do the valves and clean out the cooling passages. After that a little engine de-grease/rust and a paint job will make her feel better about herself.
Uh huh, sure, you just tell yourself that this is all your going to do to the engine. Just know that when you inevitably have it completely disassembled with every nut, bolt, bit and piece splayed out on your work bench, the whole gang will be right here to help you put it all together again.
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Old 03-03-2019, 09:31 AM
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The engine is out! I built a frame from 2x10's that mated precisely to the engine bed and slid it right out from under the companionway.

I have a plastic tarp, a moving blanket, and an aluminum pan under the frame to help contain any messes that might occur.
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Old 03-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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I'm embarrassed to show this picture. The rear seal has been leaking for a couple of years now, so this is the price I pay for procrastinating.



Here's the same space after the first stage of clean-up
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Last edited by rickinnj; 03-10-2019 at 07:24 PM. Reason: added after pic
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