Mystery wires on alternator

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Jtinius
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2012
    • 16

    Mystery wires on alternator

    First things first, the electrical system of my engine is the thing I understand the least and I am definitely new to this world so apologies if this makes little to no sense. Also, we've had this boat for two years and the engine has been running fine since an initial rebuild of a few things. Redoing electrical is next on the list so might as well learn now.

    Here's the story. My battery was draining more rapidly than usual and not charging up as quickly. Running the engine did not charge it sufficiently either. I actually had another battery, but that didn't fix the issue either so after reading a lot on here and fiddling with things, I am guessing it's the alternator. Being new to this, I thought I'd take it to a shop and let someone who knows what they're doing have a look.

    The shop had all the right things going for it...bad part of town, greeted by two dogs, etc. It was a strange experience though. Before asking what was wrong, the guy grabbed the alternator, made a phone call and shot back "575 bucks." I was confused. He told me he needed to rebuild it and that I wouldn't want a new one because this one was weird. He pointed out two wires, a red and black, coming out of the voltage regulator and asked me what they went to. I wasn't entirely sure though I thought they ran back to the battery switch. Long story, but he proceeded to chastise me for not knowing and tell me that he could rebuild an alternator 50 miles offshore and we should sell our boat.

    We (probably made the mistake) of leaving the alternator with him to see what was wrong. He called back and said "stuff was wrong" but also that those wires were where someone had bypassed the voltage regulator. In the meantime I determined that the wires do indeed go back to the big orange battery switch.

    Fortunately my father in law who knows his stuff will be here tomorrow, but I thought I'd get anyone's two cents about these "mystery wires" and whether or not anyone had seen a voltage regulator being bypassed before. Especially before I up and sell my boat

    Here are some pictures...the wires at the top are the "mystery".
    Click image for larger version

Name:	alt.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	64.0 KB
ID:	204142
    And here's a close up
    Click image for larger version

Name:	alt2.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	123.4 KB
ID:	204143
  • hanleyclifford
    Afourian MVP
    • Mar 2010
    • 6990

    #2
    First of all, go get your alternator back...be polite and leave walking backwards until you are clear. The guy has no clue and could be dangerous or on something. The wires in question go to ign and gnd but don't worry about that. It sounds like you have some blown diodes which are allowing discharge while the engine is off and not helping much when the engine is running. A good alternator shop will mount the alternator on a test machine, spin it and tell you what it's output is with regulator bypassed. Don't give up; you just hit the wrong dog, er shop.

    Comment

    • Mo
      Afourian MVP
      • Jun 2007
      • 4468

      #3
      Originally posted by hanleyclifford View Post
      First of all, go get your alternator back...be polite and leave walking backwards until you are clear. The guy has no clue and could be dangerous or on something.
      What could be better. Bruins are up two goals and I get a chuckle out of Hanley.
      Mo

      "Odyssey"
      1976 C&C 30 MKI

      The pessimist complains about the wind.
      The optimist expects it to change.
      The realist adjusts the sails.
      ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

      Comment

      • ndutton
        Afourian MVP
        • May 2009
        • 9601

        #4
        Hanley speaks the truth. There is so much wrong with what he said it's amazing. A 35A Motorola is weird?? What planet is he from? There's a direct replacement on ebay right now for 75 bucks and free shipping. Not only that, but what a great opportunity to upgrade to a higher output unit.

        Run like the wind, Bullseye.

        We can get you through the engine rewire with ease. Start with the diagrams in the forums Drawings and Schematics category and consider Moyer's kit complete with instructions:
        Last edited by ndutton; 06-17-2013, 10:50 PM.
        Neil
        1977 Catalina 30
        San Pedro, California
        prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
        Had my hands in a few others

        Comment

        • joe_db
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2009
          • 4474

          #5
          Wow- the meth head alternator shop! Run away! Besides for that, sounds like the ON wire is in the wrong place.
          Joe Della Barba
          Coquina
          C&C 35 MK I
          Maryland USA

          Comment

          • lat 64
            Afourian MVP
            • Oct 2008
            • 1964

            #6
            Run! That lunk is a Bozo.

            Rudeness is the first sign of lack of confidence. If you try to be polite and he bullies you, then tell him to go to ---- and get what's left of the Alternator and bug out. Watch out, he will try to convince you that you have an agreement to have only him finish the job. Do you have any biker friends or longshoremen? bring them along. They can help just by hanging out in the background.


            Listen to the Hanley
            My best wishes, good luck,

            Russ
            sigpic Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

            "Since when is napping doing nothing?"

            Comment

            • Dave Neptune
              Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
              • Jan 2007
              • 5044

              #7
              Bypassed regulator

              jtinius, get the alt back and run. Did he actually say the reg was bypassed? If so I have seen that quite a few times. Many of the boats equipped with small alts sometimes had a bypass wire installed so full line current could be run to the "field" which increase the load on the alt by raising the voltage into the 16~18V range for charging. This did work as the higher voltage could carry a bit more amperage to the battery. The battery(s) can take the voltage better than the rest of the electrical stuff so regulating the "VOLTAGE" to keep it at 17V or less was done with the throttle and a volt meter. The temps of the battery needed to be watched and if the voltage got to high the alt could cook, electronics could cook and the batteries could be cooked too. The practice did work only if you watched all the time. The only advantage is you could charge a bit faster only if paying full attention by being the regulator yourself. The downside was you had to have everything that a high voltage danger was off line!!! A real PIA IMHO.

              I have a portable 55 amp alt with a briggs running it set up in this way for doing some of the field work I did. I could switch from auto to manual and give the reastat a twist and even stall the briggs at low RPMs.

              The guy was being a smart ass with the rebuild comment. The alt is actually pretty simple once you understand the diode plates. The diodes are actually quite easy to replace once you know how to check. Other that that the bearings are about all that fails in an alt. The regulator whether attached or separate is the control unit for the alt and not really a part of it as you can use various regulators or control units.

              Dave Neptune

              Dave Neptune

              Comment

              • ndutton
                Afourian MVP
                • May 2009
                • 9601

                #8
                Dave's comment brings up another point. If the alt was bypassed at some point in its life there's an excellent chance it was run outside its design output and temperature. I often refer to this scenario by a technical phrase, hammering the living Hell out of it. The contradiction I'm seeing is trying to get big performance out of a 35A alternator.

                Yet another reason for replacement in my opinion.
                Last edited by ndutton; 06-18-2013, 09:53 AM.
                Neil
                1977 Catalina 30
                San Pedro, California
                prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                Had my hands in a few others

                Comment

                • edwardc
                  Afourian MVP
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 2491

                  #9
                  Sometimes alts with internal regulators have them bypassed in order to use an external "smart" regulator, like the ones Balmar sells.
                  @(^.^)@ Ed
                  1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
                  with rebuilt Atomic-4

                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • Carl-T705
                    • Jul 2011
                    • 251

                    #10
                    Rebuild an alternator 50 miles offshore?? He's such a blowhard I bet he could blow the boat back to port as well.... under bare poles.
                    If you left the alternator, what is he doing with it now? As I get older my BSTF gets lower, ( Bull S**t Tolerance Factor). This guy would have exceeded my limit. You however must be a very nice person not to have called him on it. If you retrieve the part, expect more abuse plus a bill. My guess is he has never seen one of these before. I think his price was telling you he didn't want your business. I can only imagine what his warranty is and how well he will handle it.

                    Comment

                    • joe_db
                      Afourian MVP
                      • May 2009
                      • 4474

                      #11
                      Mine does that. If you ran the field to the battery switch, it would be full-field full-output all the time

                      Originally posted by edwardc View Post
                      Sometimes alts with internal regulators have them bypassed in order to use an external "smart" regulator, like the ones Balmar sells.
                      Joe Della Barba
                      Coquina
                      C&C 35 MK I
                      Maryland USA

                      Comment

                      • Jtinius
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2012
                        • 16

                        #12
                        More pictures

                        When we went to pick up the alternator, the rude guy wasn't there so we lucked out and got the alternator back in one piece. The guy who WAS there still insisted the regulator had been bypassed. We actually did ask what he found wrong and what he planned on rebuilding for $300 and this guy seemed at a loss and just kept referring back to the wires in question.

                        My father in law and I opened up the regulator and here are the "mystery wires" inside.
                        Click image for larger version

Name:	mystery1.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	201.8 KB
ID:	194514

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	mystery2.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	196.7 KB
ID:	194515

                        Again..these run to the "field" and "ground" posts on the battery switch.

                        When measured, there's 16 volts at the alternator post and 15 on the battery terminal at fast idle.

                        Any other thoughts?

                        Comment

                        • ndutton
                          Afourian MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 9601

                          #13
                          Dude, at that voltage you'll boil your batteries (assumes they're not AGM). Please review this treatment:
                          Neil
                          1977 Catalina 30
                          San Pedro, California
                          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                          Had my hands in a few others

                          Comment

                          • romantic comedy
                            Afourian MVP
                            • May 2007
                            • 1912

                            #14
                            Neil, I read that treatment. It says to never let the batteries get over 110 degrees. That is funny. In my boat, in Florida, they get hotter then that from the sun.

                            Good document though.

                            Comment

                            • lat 64
                              Afourian MVP
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 1964

                              #15
                              Jt,
                              Glad to hear your out of the grasp of the dog pack. Say "welcome" to your Father-in-law too.

                              I have a great recommendation for reading material. It will be the best 50 bucks you spend on your education.
                              Nigel calder's book.

                              Ask for it for your birthday— better than a bottle of cheap scotch!

                              Also reading this forum too

                              r.
                              sigpic Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

                              "Since when is napping doing nothing?"

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X