Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-26-2019, 01:02 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Thanks Dave Neptune...

I have replaced all fuel filters...cheap one before the fuel pump, racor fuel filter/water separator after fuel pump...

I will still try opening the fuel cap on the deck as that is easy to do...but sounds like everyone is leaning towards the coil being the culprit.

I am not really sure how to check spark after she shuts down, so I'll have to do a little youtubing to figure that out.

I wish I could find a Palmer manual somewhere too, but I'll I've found is just a cover shot.

I appreciate everyones input!

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 138.207.175.104
Old 09-26-2019, 01:41 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
Quote:
I have replaced all fuel filters...cheap one before the fuel pump, racor fuel filter/water separator after fuel pump...
The Racor should be upstream of the fuel pump (meaning between the fuel tank and the fuel pump). The small metal polishing filter should be between the fuel pump and the carb, as shown here.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding "before" and "after"?

Bill

Last edited by Administrator; 09-26-2019 at 01:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-26-2019, 01:48 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
The Racor should be upstream of the fuel pump. The small metal polishing filter should be between the fuel pump and the carb.



Bill
Oh really?? I will change that around then...this is all set up from previous owner...would it just be to hep preserve the life of the fuel pump?
Reply With Quote
  #29   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-26-2019, 01:51 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
The Racor should be upstream of the fuel pump. The small metal polishing filter should be between the fuel pump and the carb, as shown here.

Bill
Oh, and also...I do not have that small metal polishing filter...I'll snap a pic this weekend and show my current set up. But currently I have a small plastic Marine fuel filter running before the fuel pump, and then the racor after and that is it...
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 138.207.175.104
Old 09-26-2019, 04:01 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
Having that small polishing filter be the first to see fuel from the tank is a recipe for trouble, as it can quickly clog.

The fact that it is plastic is a second "recipe."

Does the Racor have an element which looks like an oil filter?

Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Administrator For This Useful Post:
AFisch (09-26-2019), Dave Neptune (09-26-2019)
  #31   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-26-2019, 05:20 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
Having that small polishing filter be the first to see fuel from the tank is a recipe for trouble, as it can quickly clog.

The fact that it is plastic is a second "recipe."

Does the Racor have an element which looks like an oil filter?

Bill
I believe the Racor does...Name:  sd19274-racor-fuel-filter-water-separator-element-replacement-filter-only-r11t-marine-md.jpg
Views: 799
Size:  25.9 KB

Hopefully this image uploaded.

In any event, I will change the configuration and update the other filter.
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 138.207.175.104
Old 09-26-2019, 06:25 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
Are you certain it's a Racor? It should look something like this.

Bill

Last edited by Administrator; 09-26-2019 at 10:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-26-2019, 06:34 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
This is what I have...Name:  Racor.jpg
Views: 1149
Size:  62.2 KB

BTW...Thank you so much for helping already...so glad I found this forum!
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 09-26-2019, 07:24 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Order

Tank~~Racor~~fuel pump~~polishing filter~~pressure gage/shut-off valve~~carb.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
Administrator (09-26-2019), AFisch (09-27-2019)
  #35   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 09-26-2019, 07:44 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
I am not really sure how to check spark after she shuts down, so I'll have to do a little youtubing to figure that out.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=11138
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
AFisch (09-27-2019)
  #36   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 09-26-2019, 10:12 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
Give it a shot of starting ether. If it roars, spark is good and you have a fuel problem. No roar, no spark.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post:
AFisch (09-27-2019), Dave Neptune (09-27-2019)
  #37   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-30-2019, 12:21 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Ok, quick Update...

I was down on the weekend, things were a little busy with the kids and Ohana Fest going on...I did get a chance to quickly try the open gas cap on the deck...no luck, not fighting a vacuum. I will have more time to dig in to her hopefully this weekend coming up.

One thing I did make note of however...with regards to the coil being fried. When she starts up after sitting for a while...she fires up right away, fast and strong start. But (like said before), runs for less than 5 min before shutting off. I can hear the RPM's change a bit, tried giving it some more gas, but still ends up shutting down. Really feels like it just stops getting fuel. Almost as if maybe it's using up the fuel in maybe the bowl in the carburetor. Trying to start it right after and it tries to turn over, but just isn't getting fuel anymore.

Could this still be the result of the coil?

I do still need to get at the carb in the first place, but this is just my mind reeling.

Thanks again for all your help. I wish I had more time to mess with it this weekend, but I had my kids solo and they have limited attention span.

On the up side...my son (8yo) and daughter (6) got to sail a sabot for the first time and they loved it!

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 100.36.65.17
Old 09-30-2019, 01:06 PM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Yes, coil failure is notorious for mimicking a fuel problem.

The definitive test to determine which problem you have is to spray a quick shot of the evil starter fluid into the carb and try to start WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE "won't start" mode.

If it pops and even briefly starts, its a fuel problem.

If there's no response, its a spark problem.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to edwardc For This Useful Post:
AFisch (09-30-2019)
  #39   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-30-2019, 01:15 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Yes, coil failure is notorious for mimicking a fuel problem.

The definitive test to determine which problem you have is to spray a quick shot of the evil starter fluid into the carb and try to start WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE "won't start" mode.

If it pops and even briefly starts, its a fuel problem.

If there's no response, its a spark problem.
Thanks Edward...I will try this. Quick question on Executing this...do I have to be spraying the starter fluid at the same time as turning the key? Or can I Spray, then head up to the ignition switch and turn key? I am often solo when do this.

Adam
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 172.58.23.244
Old 09-30-2019, 03:04 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
I have a question for clarity about the fill cap test. Did you remove the cap immediately after a shutdown?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #41   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 09-30-2019, 04:10 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I have a question for clarity about the fill cap test. Did you remove the cap immediately after a shutdown?
Yes, I ran the engine as is...it shut down, then I removed the Cap and tried to Re-Start.

Do you think I should have done it a different way? Maybe remove cap before even trying to fire her up the first time?
Reply With Quote
  #42   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 09-30-2019, 05:34 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
Do you think I should have done it a different way? Maybe remove cap before even trying to fire her up the first time?
Nope, it's a diagnostic test for a cause of the shutdown and you did it correctly. I wasn't clear that it was done immediately after shutdown as most tests should be.

Did we ever get a spark test?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 10-01-2019, 09:37 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
I want to mention again pressure and vacuum gauges. $30 worth of eBay gauges can save 30 hours of random attempts at repairs based on guesswork. A fuel pressure gauge needs to be liquid filled and the vent at the top OPEN to work correctly. Without liquid the needle jumps around too much and without opening the rubber plug a bit the sealed up air inside causes the pressure to change with the temperature of the gauge.
The vacuum gauge doesn't need liquid filling to work.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post:
AFisch (10-01-2019), Dave Neptune (10-01-2019), Sam (10-02-2019)
  #44   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 10-01-2019, 10:44 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
A couple of cheap gages will eliminate the guessing.

Diagnosing is a process of elimination and nothing can be eliminated without a lot of guessing without gages. With gages and a "timely" spark test you will have good info and not just a guess.
Boats are usually to far away to waste time guessing and gages are cheap and easily monitored for performance of the engine.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (10-01-2019)
  #45   IP: 100.36.65.17
Old 10-01-2019, 11:00 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
Thanks Edward...I will try this. Quick question on Executing this...do I have to be spraying the starter fluid at the same time as turning the key? Or can I Spray, then head up to the ignition switch and turn key? I am often solo when do this.

Adam

You can spray it first and then try to crank. There will be enough in the carb throat to do something iff there's spark.

A remote starter switch is really uesful when testing solo. $13 at Harbor Freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-vol...tch-35448.html
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4


Last edited by edwardc; 10-01-2019 at 11:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to edwardc For This Useful Post:
AFisch (10-01-2019)
  #46   IP: 97.93.70.7
Old 10-01-2019, 11:12 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Get a remote start switch. I had one mounted in my engine box for testing and starting "hands on" at times. There cheap and far easier than lining up help. They're available at Harbor Freight and most any parts store.

Well worth installing or putting in your tool box on the boat.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
AFisch (10-01-2019), Sam (10-02-2019)
  #47   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 10-01-2019, 02:02 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Nope, it's a diagnostic test for a cause of the shutdown and you did it correctly. I wasn't clear that it was done immediately after shutdown as most tests should be.

Did we ever get a spark test?
I have not done the Spark test yet...Need a moment down at the boat without the kids...or with my wife there to distract them...hopefully this weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #48   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 10-01-2019, 03:49 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
This is what I have...Attachment 14546

BTW...Thank you so much for helping already...so glad I found this forum!
I had one of those and had all kinds of issues. I eventually figured out the IN and OUT labeling was reversed!
Reply With Quote
  #49   IP: 98.189.79.99
Old 10-01-2019, 03:54 PM
AFisch AFisch is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Laguna Niguel
Posts: 72
Thanks: 77
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
I had one of those and had all kinds of issues. I eventually figured out the IN and OUT labeling was reversed!
I just reconnected mine how it was before, so hopefully it working as it is supposed to.

What issues where you having with it...if you can remember?
Reply With Quote
  #50   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 10-01-2019, 05:53 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFisch View Post
I just reconnected mine how it was before, so hopefully it working as it is supposed to.

What issues where you having with it...if you can remember?
The way the water separator worked was hosed up if the engine is sucking from the wrong part of the filter.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post:
AFisch (10-01-2019)
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions about Racor filter Baltimore Sailor Fuel System 12 01-19-2010 09:04 AM
Alternator Questions Rick_Powers Electrical 9 08-16-2009 05:01 PM
Palmer P60 out and ready to be sold... Amorita34 For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts 1 02-27-2009 09:51 AM
a couple of random questions superdave474 General Interest 1 08-18-2008 08:08 AM
couple overhaul questions for the experts superdave474 Overhaul 5 05-05-2008 07:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved