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  #1   IP: 24.224.152.244
Old 02-25-2014, 04:17 PM
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MOB .. how hard could it be

http://vimeo.com/87355387

I'm not sure we can see this video but harness's would have made all the difference in this one. Skipper never saw it coming either. I was thinking he should have done a different approach with that sea running but then again I don't know the depth there...maybe he didn't have a choice. Allot easier to keep crew on a boat than getting them out of the water.
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Last edited by Mo; 02-25-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:12 PM
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Mo..that last statement could not be more true. The ONLY time that might not be the case is getting drug by the boat & drowning..I seem to recall one single event like that..far more MOB's have disastrous results by leaving the boat. One solution is short enough tethers that don't allow you to fall over the lifelines...but like everything else there is give & take..We have shockcord tethers with two clips at different lengths. One is short enough I can't even stand up if I attach it to the mast ring 6" off the deck.

I've never been in conditions that we've needed to use jacklines, but I also think here the best is two lines (strong webbing probably) down the boat just off centerline are best..too far out to the edge and you can still fall over. I haven't thought of a good solution for tethering myself in my cockpit yet..probably to the traveler if I REALLY had to, but I also have SS handrails at the companionway that are thru-bolted, they might work too.

Stay on the boat stay on the boat stay on the boat...and step UP into the liferaft.
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:36 PM
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Mo 3000. Limited access so no viewing. As I have said before "stay on the boat". I am cliped in as soon as I clear the slip. Short, not overboard teather. A PITA some times but all things concederd AOK with me. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 02-25-2014, 07:49 PM
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But, I have to ask...

WHAT was the skipper thinking in the first place?
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Mo..that last statement could not be more true. The ONLY time that might not be the case is getting drug by the boat & drowning..I seem to recall one single event like that..far more MOB's have disastrous results by leaving the boat. One solution is short enough tethers that don't allow you to fall over the lifelines...but like everything else there is give & take..We have shockcord tethers with two clips at different lengths. One is short enough I can't even stand up if I attach it to the mast ring 6" off the deck.

I've never been in conditions that we've needed to use jacklines, but I also think here the best is two lines (strong webbing probably) down the boat just off centerline are best..too far out to the edge and you can still fall over. I haven't thought of a good solution for tethering myself in my cockpit yet..probably to the traveler if I REALLY had to, but I also have SS handrails at the companionway that are thru-bolted, they might work too.

Stay on the boat stay on the boat stay on the boat...and step UP into the liferaft.
I have Jacklines and have used them a few times. When in the cockpit and clipped in I hook onto the split backstay chain plate....one on each side so which ever side I'm on. I usually sit on the wooden seat I made top of the transom. You will see I put some rope I have across the stern of the boat just in front of the boarding ladder. That was done when I first got the boat and I figured if a wave came over the front and tried to push me on back through it would hold me aboard...strange, but it does offer something to lean on as well. You can also see where the split backstay comes down and I can hook on. My lifejacket has the harness built in and I do have a 3 foot tether.

Just above my BBQ. there on the stern rail, you can see a MOB beacon. It is designed with a bit of weight so that it doesn't drift quickly. As soon as it is pulled from it's holster the light activate and strobes. There is no homing beacon or gps with this...just a float with flashing light to mark the area of the MOB. More helpful at night.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 04-08-2014 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:49 PM
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Exclamation

I wonder why all those people were sitting outside the cockpit in those conditions. It looks like a complicated tide pattern with rocks and little room to manoever. I've never seen Hell Gate in NYC look that scary.
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Old 02-25-2014, 09:26 PM
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Sure goes to show the importance of proper lifevests...there would be no survival in those conditions without one.

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Old 02-25-2014, 10:52 PM
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Related to the video
If I were the skipper of the power boat I'd have considered tossing a line to the victims and towing them into more sheltered water to do the rescue even if it were one or two at a time. One more good comber and the rescue boat will need rescuing. Dallying around in the surf zone seems risky to me both for the vessel and victims.

Unrelated to the video
When was the last time any of us actually practiced MOB, particularly under sail (jibe, reach, heave-to)? I confess it's been a helluva long time for me.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-25-2014 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:10 PM
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I say the same thing about towing them.

MOB drill? Why. If I go over she will have to come and get me. I just have a very strong statement in the will about if I am drowned or lost at sea. My nephew gets it all.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:17 PM
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I was thinking more about your ability to efficiently rescue one of your guests. No harm in being sharp on skills.

Come to think of it, the sailboat skipper could have tossed a tow line to the victims and possibly completed the rescue himself.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:40 PM
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When I drove for Edgartown Marine the USCG checked out the drivers every year with a MOB drill. The correct procedure is to immediately deploy the deck mounted type IV with poly (floating) line attached, then steam around back into the tide or wind (whichever is stronger) while making sure your (rescue) assistant has his/her life jacket on. Approach MOB at a crawl and retrieve.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:46 PM
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What I was talking about was returning to the victim and putting on the brakes post haste, using the boat to shield the victim from the prevailing conditions - - - all under sail so no time is spent dropping sail and firing up the engine.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:49 PM
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Neil, I was wondering about the sailboat too. But we dont know the depth there. The boat did seem like it handled well under power. I imagine the capt was a bit shaken after getting knocked down, and was leery about it happening again.

About MOB, it has only been wife and I for 15 years. Or just me. When by myself I use a harness 90 percent of the time. Trail a line, and have a rope ladder easily accessible.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:54 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
What I was talking about was returning to the victim and putting on the brakes post haste, using the boat to shield the victim from the prevailing conditions - - - all under sail so no time is spent dropping sail and firing up the engine.
Of course every situation is different and the captain must make a (quick) decision whether to lower sail or attempt a rescue under sail, but it is vitally important to get that type IV in the water instantly so the MOB can get to it while you come around. The floating line gives the retrieving boat a target other than the MOB so the retrieval can be made with a boat hook to the line followed by hauling the MOB to the boat. In heavy conditions the boat can be the MOB's most dangerous problem.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:58 PM
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I agree, the skipper was probably rattled to the point he couldn't think of everything. Looks like he remained briefly, thought about rescue but determined another knockdown wouldn't help anybody. He probably raised assistance on the radio and called it good.

At a minimum I'd have remained on station in the protected lee of the breakwater until I was certain my guests/crew were safely out of the water. That he left the area is, in my opinion, unconscionable. Easy for me to say sitting on my keester with a keyboard on my lap.

edit:
Agree Hanley, Type IV w/ tether goes over immediately. Doesn't do any good looking pretty hanging on the stern rail.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-26-2014 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:24 AM
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Water temp average is about 55F in that area, that's freaking too cold for being in the water for that long. Attempt to swim to shore, at least!
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:33 AM
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Good point Jim.

that is a question. Should they have headed to shore?

They might have been in some serious surf. Maybe rocks? But that water is cold. What to do, what to do.

I think I might have headed for shore. Just as a panic emotion. Like when you run out or air diving. You want the surface, no matter if you are down 100 feet.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:31 AM
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All good points guys. I put that video on there because I thought of or considered much the same as you guys came up with. As I played this video yesterday and saw the people on deck I called Melinda over ... "watch this". First thing out of Melinda's mouth is "what are those people doing sitting on deck in that weather"....so she obviously had more sense than the skipper. With harnesses on we would have been watching another video of a knock-down and say " that got their britches in a knot". That one oversight was the biggest mistake...this time, this situation, these conditions, etc etc.

I initially thought they'd put in on the rocks or loose someone overboard when I started watching.

Considerations and brief thoughts:

1. People on deck in rough weather...if they are not doing something keep them in cockpit.

2. No harnesses.

3. Considering entering that small port in bad weather with sea running as it was. Had to see the surf pounding those rocks.

4. Early in video: can see a town across the bay...not sure if it would have been an alternative. Option to stay out or proceed to safer entry. We don't know condition of boat, fuel supply, sailing ability, to really focus on that one.

5. Approaching the entrance from direction he did when he had to see surf and sea direction....that's why there's a pointy end on a boat.

6. Obvious lack of understanding or just plain bad judgement of the skipper on the approach...almost every aspect of what was seen.

7. Fear...a great paralyzer.

8. Fearless...a great aid to getting into more trouble.

9. After the knock down...and that was a real knock down. If he went back out there with just two people on the sailboat he'd have a very difficult time dealing with the situation...in fact I don't think he could have.
-manpower limited
-room limited
-maybe water depth limited with swell...could possibly drive keel up through boat if shallow in areas and come down off a swell.
-swell ...
-windage...a huge issue on that sail boat for stopping right there and pulling off a rescue.
-topsides high on the boat...again windage and difficulty bring people aboard.
-ability to handle the boat itself ... he had better be better at handling the boat than he was coming in.

10. There was no option to get ashore on the far side...it would have been deadly. One head hit and the person is done...I was thinking swim for the shelter the boat was in....likely impossible due to rip tide around that point with the sea running.

11. A tow to a safe pickup point might have been an option but have to consider the adrenalin, tired people in water, maybe hurt, cold etc...basically can they hold on.

12. Lets take a second to talk about the people in the water and what options they had. In case of multiple MOB...try to keep together...yourselves together"
-moral support and encouragement
-can help each other
-easier to see for rescue
-easier to recover for rescue.

13. If he couldn't recover the people he should have stayed on station...but we weren't on the boat, hearing radio traffic etc...

14. Things he did right:
-Once knocked down initial recovery of boat good.
-he didn't kill anyone with the sailboat after the knockdown...Staying away may have been the best decision made after the knock down... He may very well have known he wasn't that good. He, however, needed to stay on station though so he could point their position and that the MOB's knew they were not abandoned.
-he got help (must have called on radio for help).



Be under no illusion that everything would have worked out OK had that small power boat not showed up....without that rescue I think it would have turned deadly.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
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Last edited by Mo; 02-26-2014 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:49 AM
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Neil asked how often do you do a MOB. Mine vary but at least once a month. I never lose a hat without a recovery effort, even when solo...and hats blow off on windy days. We've had many discussions of halyards etc to get an incapacitated MOB back aboard but it all sounds good on paper...it is hard especially when fully clothed and soaking wet. The only other boat that I know do automatic MOB drills is the Canadian Navy's STV Tuna. My buddies run that and they throw a fender in the water anywhere any time. I was at the helm of her last year for the first time and Henry tossed the fender...I said smiling "You SOB, now you can watch it". Unfamiliar boat and under sail, she picked up speed quicker than mine so after the turn she gained speed faster than I expected...was too fast when I rounded up on the fender. Second attempt I ordered sails killed a tad sooner and textbook recovery.

So keep up our MOB skills. Never let a hat go or throw a fender once in a while. Being able to bring the boat back and boat handling are key...if we can't do that we can't pull off the rest. A good idea to teach mom and kids to drive the boat as well. I'll be honest, my wife has no interest in boat handling and if I go over it is what it is. This year Eric is 13 and big enough to see when standing in the cockpit...he will learn to handle the boat this year. He's already pretty good steering while sailing. Aaron, Eric's twin, has autism and doesn't have any of the sailing concept as of yet...maybe it will come.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 02-26-2014 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:44 AM
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There was more info on this incident posted on Sailing Anarchy. A few things reported were:
The skipper was one of those washed into the water.
Those remaining onboard were inexperienced.
The deep water channel is narrow and the area to the left in the video (where those in the water drifted) was shallow.
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:39 PM
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I wonder why the person filming the video ( apparently located to weather)
didn't offer assistance rather than continue filming?
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post
I wonder why the person filming the video ( apparently located to weather)
didn't offer assistance rather than continue filming?
I googled Zumaia, Spain....google maps. Can see the whole layout. The filmer was likey on the road across from the incident. Was looking at the street view version. If those people could have stayed off the rocks there was a sandy beach about 1000 feet to the left.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 02-26-2014 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:37 PM
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I humbly remove my hat and bow to the guy driving this one. Pretty much surfed it through the breakwater...and note the rocks!! Just enough room to get her through. Can notice the guy on the bow disconnect his harness as he clears the breakwater.
[YOUTUBE]SY1Ar9BXBOg[/YOUTUBE]
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 02-26-2014 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:47 PM
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Do you have any film of the Bay of Fundy showing a rough sea and tide?
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:03 PM
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Many years ago, when I took the Coast Guard Safe Boating course, they showed us a movie (old even then) which I think was titled "Black Friday." It showed a bunch of boats (some of them small commercial fishing boats) trying to enter Manasquan Inlet on the New Jersey coast. One after another, they hit the jetty, capsized, etc.

It was enough to make you nauseated (not nauseaus ).

Bill

edit: Just found it!

[YOUTUBE]5kZPgHWuuQg[/YOUTUBE]
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